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1722:). However, I note the lack of any evidence from the supporters of the move, and as noted above he had the title for 41 years of his 89-year life. Since I have found that his obituaries overwhelmingly used his title, it is clear that failure to include the title would impede some readers from finding him. The best way to serve the needs of readers who may be looking for him under either name is to follow the convention at
1053:- the way the policy is worded is that the default position is for the peerage to be used after the name, only in special cases should that be departed from. While this would be a borderline case on those grounds (Prime Ministerial candidates probably fall into the spirit of the exception no matter how short a period they were in office or how small the Government), it still seems to fall into the broader category to me.
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1036:- The main time of his political career he was not a peer and was simply known without any formal title. When researching the history of Northern Ireland he will be listed without the title as he was not ennobled when he held the position. To add the title just because he is was a peer over what he is commonly known as is ludicrous, confusing and not helpful to the outside user.--
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2179:"On his mother's side the family are descended from the Donegall Chichesters" - further to the above discussion of many years ago, it might be thought worthwhile mentioning in the article that this quote proves Chichester-Clark was related (albeit perhaps quite distantly) to his immediate predecessor as PM of Northern Ireland,
1001:. Where is the evidence that he was know exclusively as Lord Moyola after his peerage was granted? One obituary does not clinch the argument. When I saw the obituary of Lord Moyola in the Guardian I had never heard of this person before, it was only when I started reading it I realised that this was Major Chichester-Clark.
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in the first and last phrases, since when his actions were notable he did not have the title. The worry is that some future editor will start using it anachronistically, as had already been done for his grandmother when this article used to say "Dame Dehra willingly returned to
Northern Ireland from
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Complete nonsence, the policy is being ignored and the convention is taking precedence. Where peerage titles are the common name then the peerage naming convention comes in. The naming convention is how to format the titles of the articles as opposed to being the way article of peers must be titled.
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Obviously I don't have any evidence of any actual confusion, any more than anyone else has evidence that it actually assisted anyone. But as a general rule, adding extraneous information to article titles can be expected to make people wonder whether the article is actually about the subject that's
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The above comments are not relevant to this discussion and are wholly personal in nature, and are a borderline smear attempt, in my opinion. This is beginning to divert away from the actual purpose of this discussion. The application of common name has been not only explained by myself but multiple
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The thing that gave him notability to the wider general public and that was when he was Prime
Minister of Northern Ireland. As he was now exclusivly as JC-C during him time as prime minister most people who are familiar with him as the Prime minster of Northern Ireland will identify him as JC-C ad
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The above comments are contradictory in nature, A few obits doesn't mean during his life he wasn't simply known as James
Chichester-Clark, also what will the official records of Northern Ireland show. I am certian they will show James Chichester-Clark becuase during his time in charge that was his
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Obituaries aren't everything. Knowledge's normal treatment of subjects with more than one name is to pick one of them for the title, not try to cram them all in. There are reasons for this - the main one I can think of is that more can be less - people might immediately recognize J C-C on its own,
1518:. Still not sure which way to go with this one. Yes, JCC was best known as PM of NI, without his title. OTOH he had the title for 41 years of his 89-years lifespan, so for most of his adult life he was Lord Moyola ... and that makes me lean to using the title, as was the case for three years. --
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Not so. Each case is examined against policy and guidelines, with the aim of achieving a consistency of approach. If we simply treated each case as "unique", we would dispense with policies and guidelines. So, just how common do you believe a COMMONNAME has to be to be applied? You rejected the
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I believe agreement to disagree will have to do here as I do not accept the premise of you argument above, as i firmly believe each case should be viewed uniquely and on their individual merits and not restricted to the application of uniform policies without exception. Sensible application of
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The result of the proposal was not moved. The argument that he is notable primarily as the prime minister of N. Ireland, that the current article title corresponds to what he was known as while PM of N. Ireland, and that no disambiguation is necessary in this case is persuasive and appears to
814:—. The page has recently been moved several times in quick succession, so I have protected it for 2 weeks against further moves. This discussion will allow editors to seek a consensus on what the article title should be, and the protection does not prejudice the outcome of that discussion.
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not by the ambigous and unknown Lord Moyola title, reagrdless of how long he held the title. He was far better know as the Prime
Minister of northern Ireland and that is what he will forever be remembered for, and during that time he was known as JC-C no title in site.--
1192:? In both those cases, the subjects are clearly best known by their peerages, yet you removed the peerage from the article title. Why are you determined to apply COMONNAME here, to the exclusion of NPCPEER, when you completely ignored COMMONNAME in those two cases? --
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read it, I would have hoped that your response would address the points made. We agree that in his time as PM he was known as JC-C; that is not in dispute, and the proposal to restore the stable article title would not remove JC-C from the article name. The proposal
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but tag something else on the end of it and they start to have doubts as to who is actually being referred to. (And anyway, the obituaries say Lord Moyola, not Baron Moyola - you peerage buffs don't seem to appreciate that most people don't know this equivalence.)--
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You say that " Lord Moyola" is ambiguous. Note that the proposal is to add the precise form "Baron Moyola", and please offer evidence of how either "Lord Moyola" or "Baron Moyola" is ambiguous. I have not found any evidece of anyone else bearing that title.
1017:'Where is the evidence that he was know exclusively as Lord Moyola after his peerage was granted?' NCPEER works the other way - 'peers who are almost exclusively known by their personal names have their articles so titled' Otherwise titles are used.
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Each request is unique and the arguments used on one request cannot be used on another unless they are explicitly made on that individual request. In this case there will be some repetition with regards to similar requests the same users are involved
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The words "James
Chichester-Clark" will be there are the start of the article title, even if it includes the peerage. Note that the stable name of the article included the title for three years. What evidence do you have that this caused confusion?
822:, it would appear that from the title "James Chichester-Clark, Baron Moyola" was the stable title from 2007 to 2010. I have not personally formed a view on how I think the page should be named, but may do so in the course of this discussion. --
1407:
So what was the exception in
Strathyclyde's case that made both COMMONNAME and NCPEER inapplicable? I'm all in favour of sensible application of policy, so in deciding whether your desired application is sensible, it would help to know under
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It's not extraneous information: it's one of the names by which he was known. A medal or honour added to end of his name (OBE KB KCMG MC DSO etc) is is extraneous info, because it would not identify him; but that's not the case
1968:-- Prime Ministers are an exception to the rule that peers should be used by the highest title they have attained. However in these cases, the full name (with title - here Baron Moyola) should exist as a redirect.
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Your arguments about policy are simply bogus, because your move log shows that you just don't want any articles to have a peerage title, regardless of how long they have been known by their peerage title.
974:- On the basis of the cited guidelines, it would seem that it should be moved. He was known exclusively as Lord Moyola once his peerage was granted - see, for example, his obituary in the Guardian -
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Why do you believe that it will assist readers to remove from his article any trace of the name used for his obituary headline in the main newspapers in
England, Scotland and Northern Ireland? --
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As I have said I view each case uniquely and arguments used on one topic do not automatically translate to another albeit similar topic As you have said we shall have to agree to disagree.--
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This is directly relevant to this discussion, because you are making a claim about the relationship between a policy and a guideline, and your arguments appear to contradict your actions. --
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Try explaining it again, Lucy-marie. Why exactly do you claim that COMMONAME trumps NCPEER in this case, when you ignotred COMMONNAME with Lord
Strathclyde and Baroness Symons?
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the title which he held for most of his adult life, and by which he was identified at time of death. Why do you believe that the reader is assisted by removing that title? --
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The common name policy comes first, and if the peerage title is the common name then the naming convention dictates how to format the title, not the convention coming first.--
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Thanks, Pat: that's about a 25%-75% split. If we had to choose just one of those options, we'd obviously go for JC-C at 72% ... but we don't have to choose between them. --
886:- Would you mind elaborating please, as to how the naming convention is relevant to this issue and what points of the naming convention are the grounds for your argument.--
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is policy: it explicitly states that guidelines may document consensus recommending "the use of titles that are not strictly the common name", which is what NCPEER does.
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I have indeed read it carefully. And I am still looking forward to your explanation of why you believe that PatGallacher's approach applies here, when you did
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apply it to Lord
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For now at least - i'll have a better look when I have time. As above the policy works on the presumption of using the title not as PatGallacher suggests
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1083:- Only reading the naming convention ignores the fact that the common name policy states the common name should be used over rarer more formal versions.--
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after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add
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as "Lord Moyola"/"Baron Moyola". For example, the headline on his obituaries in most of the newspapers that I have found calls him "Lord Moyola":
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overwhelming common name for Lord
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had no children, so I'm guessing Chichester-Clark was a direct descendant of one of Sir Arthur's siblings? Either John or
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by my reading of NCPEER. Kittybrewster, this is quoting out of context, look at what it says just after this about e.g.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Please read the comments by PatGallacher which clearly sums up the misinterpretaion on NCPEER being undertaken.--
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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However, it doesn't look you want to explain the contradiction, so as you say we'll have to agree to differ. --
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That's an interesting shift, because you argued above that "the common name policy comes first", even though
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Google searches aren't everything, but Lord Moyola has around 2900 hits, James Chichester-Clark aroun 7600.
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You say that " Lord Moyola" is unknown. Wrong: see the obits. Newspaper headlines do not use unknown titles.
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
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I thought there was a section on his marriage, &c., in here, but it seems to have disappeared. --
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I think so, I'll check tonight. I know he was related to Sir Arthur Chichester so it seems likley.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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Each case is unique and the merits of each case only apply to the specific individual cases.--
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The (crap) biography written of C-C says he is a direct decendant of Sir Arthur Chichester.
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he had a title, and that clearly pointed to dropping he title (as we have done with e.g.
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best known by that name (at least, I presume that's the reason we don't do it). --
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in this case, just a blanket determination to ignore it, as demonstrated by your
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Try again. If you are trying to uphold COMMONNAME, please explain why you moved
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1714:. I was unsure about this, because JC-C was clearly most notable in the period
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2114:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2002/may/20/guardianobituaries.northernireland
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/05/20/db2001.xml
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A reader may have encountered his name as either "James Chichester-Clark"
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policies must be taken and not application to the letter of the policy.--
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1853:. There is no proposal to remove JC-C from the article title, just to
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you ignore both COMMONNAME and NCPEER in some cases but not in others.
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Was Chichester-Clark related to the Marquess of Donegall Chichesters?
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.
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High-importance biography (politics and government) articles
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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Unknown-importance Politics of the United Kingdom articles
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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The following is a closed discussion of the proposal.
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The guideline has been drawn up in full knowledge of
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Knowledge:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom
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1951:England" 16 years before she became a dame. --
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907:. You are just trying to scatter the text.
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1789:I have and I have given a response. --
1402:WP:Article titles#explicit conventions
654:Indeed, as are the Donegall family. --
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1753:name and he had no ennobled title.--
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294:now archived
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40:WikiProjects
2097:Sourcecheck
1948:Lord Moyola
747:Sorry, see
732:reference?
289:peer review
30:Start-class
2205:Categories
2013:Born2cycle
1922:HairedGirl
1869:HairedGirl
1837:Lucy-marie
1817:HairedGirl
1791:Lucy-marie
1772:HairedGirl
1755:Lucy-marie
1731:HairedGirl
1671:HairedGirl
1652:The Herald
1563:HairedGirl
1523:HairedGirl
1481:Lucy-marie
1420:HairedGirl
1388:Lucy-marie
1368:HairedGirl
1350:Lucy-marie
1303:HairedGirl
1256:Lucy-marie
1237:HairedGirl
1217:Lucy-marie
1197:HairedGirl
1164:Lucy-marie
1144:HairedGirl
1085:Lucy-marie
1038:Lucy-marie
924:Lucy-marie
905:Dee Doocey
888:Lucy-marie
840:HairedGirl
2150:this tool
2143:this tool
1991:and less
1724:WP:NCPEER
1106:WP:NCPEER
863:WP:NCPEER
824:Relisted
787:WP:NCPEER
291:which is
212:Biography
141:Biography
2189:Harfarhs
2156:Cheers.—
2058:cbignore
2009:WP:TITLE
1997:WP:TITLE
1930:contribs
1877:contribs
1825:contribs
1780:contribs
1739:contribs
1691:Kotniski
1679:contribs
1589:Kotniski
1571:contribs
1545:Kotniski
1531:contribs
1428:contribs
1376:contribs
1311:contribs
1245:contribs
1205:contribs
1152:contribs
884:Comment'
848:contribs
749:WP:NCROY
2183:. (See
2166::Online
2083:checked
2052:my edit
1993:natural
1989:concise
1953:Rumping
1944:Comment
1901:Comment
1803:If you
1516:Comment
1081:Comment
1069:Support
1051:Support
972:Support
937:Comment
901:Comment
859:Support
796:comment
574:on the
547:Ireland
538:Ireland
494:Ireland
469:on the
349:defunct
323:defunct
2175:Family
2091:failed
2066:nobots
1985:Oppose
1966:Oppose
1926:(talk)
1873:(talk)
1821:(talk)
1776:(talk)
1735:(talk)
1716:before
1675:(talk)
1567:(talk)
1541:Oppose
1527:(talk)
1424:(talk)
1372:(talk)
1307:(talk)
1241:(talk)
1201:(talk)
1180:to to
1148:(talk)
1034:Oppose
995:Oppose
844:(talk)
695:Family
637:Edward
36:scale.
2011:. --
1920:Brown
1867:Brown
1815:Brown
1770:Brown
1729:Brown
1669:Brown
1602:here.
1561:Brown
1521:Brown
1418:Brown
1366:Brown
1301:Brown
1235:Brown
1195:Brown
1142:Brown
922:in.--
838:Brown
2193:talk
2087:true
2017:talk
2005:less
1974:talk
1957:talk
1909:talk
1851:read
1841:talk
1810:adds
1795:talk
1759:talk
1695:talk
1593:talk
1549:talk
1485:talk
1392:talk
1354:talk
1260:talk
1221:talk
1168:talk
1089:talk
1077:talk
1059:talk
1042:talk
1023:talk
1007:talk
984:talk
928:talk
892:talk
861:per
831:Talk
819:and
791:rgpk
789:. --
757:talk
723:talk
705:talk
631:Sir
566:High
461:High
201:and
2187:.)
2124:RfC
2101:).
2089:or
1928:• (
1875:• (
1855:add
1823:• (
1805:had
1778:• (
1737:• (
1677:• (
1659:BBC
1569:• (
1529:• (
1426:• (
1410:why
1374:• (
1309:• (
1296:not
1243:• (
1203:• (
1188:to
1150:• (
1132:to
1121:to
846:• (
715:not
643:Stu
601:Stu
112:???
2207::
2195:)
2137:.
2132:}}
2128:{{
2099:}}
2095:{{
2064:{{
2060:}}
2056:{{
2019:)
1976:)
1959:)
1911:)
1864:--
1843:)
1797:)
1761:)
1697:)
1649:,
1641:,
1633:,
1625:,
1617:,
1607:or
1595:)
1558:--
1551:)
1394:)
1356:)
1262:)
1223:)
1170:)
1139:--
1091:)
1061:)
1044:)
1025:)
1009:)
986:)
949:"
930:)
894:)
865:.
808:→
759:)
751:.
725:)
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148:/
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2191:(
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