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books I used to write the article but that was a library book, so I can't look it up again. Gesualdo really wasn't a "professional" -- he didn't need a job, and while he devoted his life to music didn't need to make any money at it. He was a melomaniac -- one obsessed with music -- (had that word in the article but people kept changing it idiotically to "megalomaniac" so I took it out) -- and other than hunting, screwing, murder, and self-flagellation, he had no professional life.
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circulated seems to be the large winged infant in the painting at S. Maria della Grazie, which some believe to be the murdered child. (As an aside, this article suggests that the painting was commissioned in 1600 after the death of Carlo's second documented child, although
Watkins strongly believes the painting was commissioned much earlier - between 1592 and 1594, after which Gesualdo departed for an extended stay in Ferrara. I think this ought to be mentioned/corrected as well.)
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1012:. For me the balance for the biography article would be that neither his music nor the extraordinary events of his life get most of the focus, for which the end of the current lede might be a good compass: "The fascination for his extraordinary music and his shocking acts go hand in hand" – the link you provided above to the
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Whether or not someone is tired is irrelevant to the quality of the article or the lead, as I'm sure you'll agree. I'm an active editor of classical music and composer articles, so writing me off as a "drive-by editor" seems rather gratuitous, although that should not affect anyone's judgment of this
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If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that
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Hm, while I wrote the article, I didn't add that part. It's obviously wrong as is, and your suggestion is a good one. I don't have the
Heseltine book nearby, but what I remember is that he arranged to have the locks seem to latch, but yet be openable from outside; it might have involved another set
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I read all of the biographical matter available (Gray/Heseltine, Watkins, Grove) before writing the article, but do not remember seeing any reference to something like this. Unfortunately the author of that website does not give a source (all the other details in his article are correct, as far as I
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I think you're right, and I don't have the
Watkins book with me here. Go ahead and fix it with the information above if you like; I think it's useful to mention the tale, because it's so widely circulated, but also to mention that it's unverifiable. As of the painting, I no longer remember where I
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Your version of the lead was not a correct summary of what is sourced in the body of the article. That body still has many issues that need to be addressed. I'm getting quite tired of drive-by editors, who seem not to care about this article and its content, but seem bent on keeping its lead as far
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This was a frustrating biography to write, because it keeps getting degraded by drive-by edits, which usually dumb it down or take out the juicy bits. And who had a juicier biography than
Gesualdo? I may put some of it back -- after all, I took it from Gray, Heseltine, and others -- unfortunately
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I think I forgot to mention this in the review -- the one-line paragraph about him being bipolar struck me as being out of place. The fact (especially the "widely believed" aspect, which really ought to be elaborated by specific mention from suitable sources) ought to be integratable into the text
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There has been research done via the painting with him in it that suggests very, very strongly that not only did he NOT kill the infant, but that the infant never existed, and was just a story made up to make him look worse. I'd not be surprised it this "father-in-law" business was the same thing,
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Hello, it would be a good time and place now to discuss about my edits. First things first, you noticed that I added the word "but". Of course, I now get it and understand that I should be citing a reliable source that uses the word. By the way, one thing I think we should really discuss about on
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Yeah, maybe I didn't make it clear. The town of
Gesualdo isn't far from Naples; as a prince he had several palaces, including one in Naples. I'm sure you could get from one to another on horseback in the sixteenth century without much trouble. There's a picture of his Naples digs in one of the
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Does not only sound silly, but false, too. Knowledge is not a court of law where the entire subject is to be reduced to one deed of his. He was a nobleman alright, a noted composer and lutenist by profession, and we are keeping him in our encyclopedias for the composer part. And that is where his
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program shows the same approach splendidly: concert (Gesualdo's music) intertwined with "case study" analyses. That's the artistic approach, but for the encyclopedic approach the same kind of balance can apply: divide the attention more or less equally between music descriptions and biographical
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I can add a works list to the article (I'll put on my to-do list--maybe tonight). In the meantime you can find a complete list at grovemusic.com (subscription access). Unless I hear any objection I'll do the madrigals by book, i.e. I'll list the contents of each book with the publication date.
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According to
Watkins's biography, the murder of the son-in-law is pure hearsay; the quote cited is not verifiably contemporary, but rather from an account written in 1863 by C. Modestino, supposedly based on an original contemporary doc that is now lost. The main reason this tale continues to be
1184:===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.
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Regardless, the question had to do with factual errors. Which ones did the new version of the lead contain? You appear to be a seasoned en.wikipedia editor, so you should know by now that phrases like "intensely expressive madrigals", "gruesome killing" and "his extraordinary music and for his
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Is it really "ridiculous" to describe the means by which he is alleged to have killed his first wife and lover (not to mention the possible other two)? If no details are known, shouldn't this be clearly stated instead (perhaps in a footnote), as this casts further doubt on the veracity of the
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I question the relevance of this to an article about a musician, but the following website claims that
Gesualdo dallied with both sexes. Hmmm. I suppose it is rather interesting when one takes into account how much of the article is devoted to scandal and murder, it does make for even more
1621:: Could you please clarify your reversal of my edit? The lead neither makes nor made any explicit statement about Gesualdo being acquitted. Furthermore, you may restore/insert that information, rather than reversing the changes that ensured that the lead is in line with policies such as
691:"Gesualdo had arranged with his servants to have the locks of his palace copied in wood so that he could gain entrance if locked." Yes. What does this mean, exactly? How would it help to copy your locks in wood? Should it say 'keys', perhaps, rather than locks?--
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I guess it is meant that a lock's copy made of wood works with the same keys, so one would not easily notice the fraud, but may easily be destroyed when locked. But I can neither confirm nor reject this point, my sources say only that the locks had been corrupted.
1690:"). If the reasons for that revert are clear (since, apparently, no further questions need to be asked about it), I'd suggest we concentrate on improving the article rather than having an elaborate talk page discussion about all sorts of unrelated questions. --
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review of its B-class articles. This article is B-class; through some oversight, we do not know what (professionally), if anything, Gesualdo was doing in Naples (or when he's known to have moved there) before the murders. My full review is on the
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They are two different people -- Carlo
Borromeo died in 1584, was canonized in 1610, and Carlo Gesualdo was writing (over and over and over!) to Cardinal Federico Borromeo, shortly after the canonization. I can cite the Grove article if you like.
853:. But in this catalogue I couldn't find "O malnati messaggi", madrigal probably from the third book. Is there a reason for that? And isn't there an order for each madrigal book content? We can deliberately consider them in an alphabetical order?
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the murders take place. It says they took place at his palace in Naples; it does not say what he was doing in Naples (janitor? court composer? rich nobleman?) or what is known of his arrival there.
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Mixing "murderer" in with the other epithets makes it sound like it was a profession. When a person is notable for crimes separate from their occupation, it reads better as separate sentences, eg:
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It was great to include a catalogue with his madrigals and its correspondence to each book (in madrigal repertoire it is not always indicated, and everything becomes free and detached). Thanks to
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Yes: there are no records from official sources (as far as I know) for either of these two additional murders. I added another line to that paragraph indicating exactly this.
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Surely, there's enough material to be found for a separate article on the killings (never doubted that), like we already have a separate on some of his compositions, e.g.
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detail. More biographical detail could eventually be spinned out to one or more separate articles, like we have separate articles on some of the compositions too. --
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Again, please use this talk page to explain your edits if you want to see them accepted. Regarding "But ...": this is generally avoided per the guidance found at
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It said
Gesualdo asked Cardinal Borromeo (his uncle) to send him relics (skeletal remains) of his uncle, which makes no sense. I removed "of his uncle Carlo."
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allegations? I quite agree that
Knowledge is not a tabloid. But the method(s) of murder are not "gory details", they're just facts (if they actually exist).
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Hey Francis Schonken, this is Smart Aleck. Like you said, we could start a discussion about my editions to the article here. I'm sorry for the delay.
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just a false tale made to besmirch him. There is good reason to believe that he did indeed feel guilt and agony from these deaths all his life.
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samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with
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Feel free to research the topic in reliable sources, and add content to the article accordingly. My reaction was entirely regarding the
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Re. "the question had to do with factual errors" – which was not the main reason for my revert (for clarity, its edit summary reads: "
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1308:===Summary=== Ooh, a spicy biography (rubs hands). Interesting character, mostly well-covered. It is strangely ambiguous at first
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IMO this sounds silly, I'll remove it because the very next sentence mentions the murders anyway, and THEN an entire section.
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have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?
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What was his job at the time of the murders? Presumably something in Naples? When did he go from Venosa to Naples?
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this would be the appropriate place to discuss your proposed additions to the Gesualdo article. Tx. --
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Documentary "Gesualdo - Death for Five Voices" (1995) by Werner Herzog is not mentioned at all. //arl
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is the place to talk about technical and editorial issues and exchange ideas. New members are welcome!
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got that date, and even if it was me who inserted it, so feel free to change that and cite Watkins.
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he is best known for writing intensely expressive madrigals and pieces..." to be preferred to "As a
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that was before I was using inline cites so I'd have to get the books again to put in precise refs.
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It would be greatly useful to find a catalogue with his books of madrigals. Where can we find it? --
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Well, none of what you say really surprises me, but it all could be a bit clearer in the article.
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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as possible from a NPOV version of article content that can be sourced to reliable sources. --
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nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation,
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uses that wording in its description, and then it needs to attributed to that source. --
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Last edited at 01:02, 25 February 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 10:56, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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Could anyone please rectify the sentence about his birthdate? Exact data are found in
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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he is best known for writing intensely expressive madrigals and pieces ..."? Thanks.
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tag, suggesting the article would be somehow incomplete without the gory details. --
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his wife and her lover, with reports he also killed his own son and father-in-law.
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elsewhere, since there's plenty of discussion of his behavior and mental state.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20120405162321/http://www.paolaerdas.it/clip/pe2.mp3
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this page is my past edits on Gesualdo's killings of his wife and her lover.
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Apparently, forensic psychiatrist Dr Ruth McAllister has used the murder as a
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language not heard again until the late 19th century. He is also known for
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deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down.
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to the subject's name. You haven't made a case for adding the quote from
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page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page.
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1095:==Composers Project Assessment of Carlo Gesualdo: 2009-02-25==
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~rneckmag/gesualdo.html
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I direct you to another site with Gesualdo information:
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A fact from this article was featured on Knowledge's
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665:I had no idea how to fit it into the article!
1071:The comment(s) below were originally left at
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1484:I have just modified one external link on
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1434:Smart Aleck
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1397:Smart Aleck
1014:I Fagiolini
856:—Preceding
587:Renaissance
36:section on
33:On this day
1713:Categories
1577:Report bug
1339:New Yorker
1289:review===
1113:Magicpiano
1109:assessment
1087:Comment(s)
992:case study
910:Antandrus
829:Antandrus
771:Antandrus
709:Antandrus
707:of keys.
675:Antandrus
455:Antandrus
426:Antandrus
396:Antandrus
1560:this tool
1553:this tool
1266:WP:LAYOUT
1105:Composers
851:Antandrus
652:Sexuality
634:Birthdate
598:chromatic
594:madrigals
505:Anapazapa
357:Murderers
244:Composers
214:Composers
160:Biography
105:Musicians
100:Biography
69:is rated
28:Main Page
1597:composer
1593:musician
1566:Cheers.—
1212:fair use
1142:status.
1132:WP:WIAFA
1128:WP:WIAGA
1037:your web
889:unsigned
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858:unsigned
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583:composer
579:lutenist
575:nobleman
559:Gesualdo
387:contribs
374:unsigned
1490:my edit
1349:editor
1302:WP:LEAD
1295:WP:CITE
1270:WP:SIZE
1262:WP:LEAD
976:" tag.
602:killing
338:on the
71:C-class
30:in the
1670:WP:WTA
1666:WP:NPV
1627:WP:WTA
1623:WP:NPV
1371:WP:BRD
1341:, etc.
1323:♪piano
1258:WP:MOS
1241:should
1124:WP:MOS
913:(talk)
881:Relics
832:(talk)
804:♪piano
774:(talk)
760:♪piano
712:(talk)
678:(talk)
644:Gprini
567:Venosa
555:Venosa
458:(talk)
429:(talk)
399:(talk)
77:scale.
1318:Magic
1310:where
799:Magic
755:Magic
693:JO 24
438:Works
410:Epn10
58:This
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1504:to
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475:Hmm
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330:Top
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