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the article and its links do not actually tell the reader what a
Standard is. The ASTM definition of a standard, at least in paraphrase, would appear to be essential information. Rules on committee balance are also important information that is missing. I would normally jump straight in and do a major re-write, as I have done in other cases. However, looking through the history page, I notice a major chunk of stuff eliminated 19 Sept 2006, and I got cold feet. What's the problem? Shall I go ahead and add these features? Does someone else want to?
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1032:. For Example: I hired a local firm to install a stucco application on my home. I was counting on them matching the materials to their previous work. When they began they used a new subtrate cement backer-board which was had a goodly percentage of styrofoam aggregate along with the customary cement. I was concerned about the fire rating of the finished work given that styrofoam emits a deadly gas when exposed to heat. The backer board cited an ASTM code (HTML link
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Standards. ASTM citations on a product only provides an indecipherable code, written by and between materials testing engineers. While this may be a good thing for them, the public has no way of breaking the code (to understand whether the standard is appliciable to a particular purpose) unless they are willing to shell out costly document (approx $ 12/page each of which customarily references numerous other standards), or membeship fees
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player on the world standardisation stage. Its standards "market share" speaks volumes. One can (and one will) argue that the ASTM website and "Standardization News" are not suitably neutral citation sources. No doubt non-English-Knowledge editors appreciate this point. And if the non-English articles are insufficiently fulsome in their praise of ASTM, presumably it's those articles that need tagging, and not this . . . .
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1452:, 'At the fifth annual meeting of the American Section in 1902, they renamed the organization the American Society for Testing Materials and elected Dudley as its first president' and later, 'In 1961, sixty years after the American Section had turned itself into the American Society for Testing Materials, the organization renamed itself once again and became the American Society for Testing and Materials.'
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that it is a minor player, put that in the article. The ASTM page on most other wikipedia is a stub, so don't merit more precise tagging. I think one of the most interesting things about ASTM is that it as large as it is, despite not being a national standards body. And the pros and cons of a volunteer-based standards development organization merit some discussion. --
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company that had over twenty ASTM members. None of the others could vote. Failure to vote on ballots results in expulsion from committees, so voting members had better exercise their right. Anyone can vote in Task Groups, but these do not make standards. I guess I can dig out the references from the rule book if you're not convinced by this. . . .
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who use the item (engineers, trade unions, etc) or specify the item (building codes, government, industry, etc) have the responsibility to consider the available specifications, specify the correct one, enforce compliance, and use the item correctly. This does not fully answer your question but I hope it helps a little.
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what else is needed to adequately "internationalise" the article. I agree that people who can't think of anything to write should defer to those who can. But in view of the fact that the tag is still there, the latter category is presumably unpopulated. If anybody feels that the article still lacks
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article appears to have a mainly
American viewpoint, but that's not a problem, because people outside the US a) don't much care about them, and b) don't know enough to make sensible edits. Following the above suggestion, I have looked through all the interwiki links, and I'm still in the dark as to
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which the lay public might not relate with. As an engineer, I support ASTM and other technical standardization groups - - - but not blindly. Just because an item is stamped with an ASTM specificaiton number does not, by itself, indicate that the item is correct for any particular use. The people
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There is currently a tag indicating that a worldwide view is needed. I have expanded the discussion to more international subjects. I have given an example of international usage of ASTM. Yet, the tag remains. Please tell us specifically what your objection is. We cannot fix something without a
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I'd like to put it back in, or put in something like it. It has been my experience that people who are interested in standards but are not members of ASTM do not understand that anyone who wants to pay $ 75/year can be a member. And that any member can vote on any standard (although as a rule most
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I just looked at this article for the first time. As one interested in ASTM, it seems a bit thin. In writing articles that reference ASTM, I would expect anyone clicking the wikilink would get a rasonably detailed description of what the organization does. I'm immediately struck by the fact that
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According to the intro, ASTM was founded as "the
American Section of the International Association for Testing Materials". In the history section, however, no "International Association" is mentioned, and the original name of ASTM is given as "the American Society for Testing Materials". I suspect
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It would be most helpful to cite a reference, or have links to provide the non-engineering public where to go for a layman's understanding of ASTM citations on consumer products (construction materials, supplies, and other safety products), or at least where one can go for an interpretation of the
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The ASTM website and magazine are not neutral but they are a source of facts (eg, which national standards bodies have signed MOUs with ASTM). Do you have an appropriate source for "the prevailing international opinion that ASTM is a relatively insignificant player"? If the world view of ASTM is
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The link to NFPA is also extraneous. NFPA is just one of thousands of other organizations that have some role in developing standards. But NFPA is not principally a standards developing organization; NFPA also adopts standards, and has other purposes. There are other, more relevant wikipedia
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I agree that a lot more can be said about ASTM, in an objective way. I'm not sure that MOUs are all that significant: most of these bodies also have MOUs with other standards suppliers: if it were otherwise it would be "restraint of trade". I suppose that one could cite the dismissively small
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The purpose of the article is to describe ASTM, not to sell it. Presumably in the interests of NPOV, so that the article doesn't sound like an advert for ASTM (prohibited by
Knowledge policy), we ought also to mention the prevailing international opinion that ASTM is a relatively insignificant
608:. It also has a significant amount of self-touting weasel words and phrases such as "a trusted source for technical standards..." and "ASTM answered the call..." And speaks nothing of the criticisms of ASTM. It was probably easier to simply dump the sections rather than rewrite them at the time.
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I added (under
Membership) a sentence defining the the categories of members. This was necessary in order to define the balance and voting rules. This rendered the sentence in the preamble redundant. Multiple votes (as I pointed out) are not allowed. I was for years the voting member for a
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I'd like to open up discussion on this, since the tag is still there after 6/7 weeks. What do we need to do to obtain the required international viewpoint, so that the tag can be removed? Just how much international view is necessary (or available) on the subject of an organization that is
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You were an organizational representative, casting the organization's vote. In some ASTM committees it is common practice for all members to be individual members, each one with an individual vote. To be really technical about it, if task groups do not make standards then subcommittees and
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This seems to touch a bit of recentism, but more importantly, I'm unclear as to what is meant by "examination of the group's mission...relevance". In my view, this needs to be sourced and have more detail about the results of such an examination; or it should be removed. Thoughts?
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Hm. ASTM's website is increasingly multilingual, so there is more material for non-English wikipedia to use and cite. And its magazine seems to report every month a new MOU between ASTM and one or more foreign national standards bodies. Then there is adoption of ASTM standards by
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one was way out there. I didn't feel right taking NFPA off the list until I looked further into it; it does serve more purposes than just standards issuing and thus might be, as you indicated, a stretch; I think we can ding it for now (until another editor goes
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is the type of thing I primarily use ASTM for; but ASTM issues many standards ranging from those to other, stranger, stuff (I think there's one involving a highchair). I'm walking the line on this one - probably because that's what I, and most other,
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That is a good question. As to availability, a set of ASTM standards is often found in the reference section of a major library, certainly a library of an engineering college. But yes, these are often technical
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The 1961 name is the same name as the original: 'Originally called the "American
Society for Testing Materials" in 1902, it became the "American Society for Testing Materials" in 1961'. From this source,
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page. It looks like the standards page needs a read-through as well, as it does not have NIST listed except for as an external link when it should be a "see also" as well (as you pointed out).
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Title: The Work of the
International Association for Testing Materials Authors: Merriman, Mansfield Publication: Science, Volume 10, Issue 247, pp. 396-402 Publication Date: 09/1899
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utilize the standards for. We might need a third opinion on that. (And as to whether or not the list shoud exist - you might consider raising that question on the bugger's
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national standards bodies. And there is the significance of certain ASTM standards for international trade (eg, in food ingredients, steel, oil and gas products), etc. --
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Fine: thanks for the addition. It might be worth while finding out the proportion of non-North
American members (of which I'm one). I'll see what I can dig out. . . .
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I just want the intro to state that ASTM has a significant and growing international membership; it isn't a purely "American" (meaning USA) standards organization.
1035:) which did not lend any intelligence on the matter. Were I to pay the $ 35 for the referenced document, I cannot be sure that would find what I was looking for.
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The organization celebrated its
Centennial in 1998 with an examination of the group's mission and discussion about their relevance in today's global environment.
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international viewpoint, please make a detailed list of its deficiencies, so that editors can address them. If no list appears, I shall remove the tag. . . .
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This article talk page does not show any
Knowledge projects. The organization is very important, and should have projects shown. Perhaps {{WPMeasure}? --
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committees also do not make them, because there is yet another level of review: society review. ASTM's rule book is online, BTW, and I have a copy.
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You're welcome to dig in if you want; aside from using the standards in practice, I have very little familiarity with their organizational side.
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I disagree that this article is a stub. This is all the available information that can be found and an external link has been given.
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If anything it would probably be a business wikiproject, but you ought to ask someone who's part of the project to confirm that.
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Thousands of members from over 100 countries represent manufacturers, industry users, governments, researchers, and consumers.
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for a legitimate reason, but the converse link has no relevance in the article as written. Instead, the reader should check
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too unreliable for that! I recall a survey that showed ASTM's market share at around 11% - I'll see if I can find it. . . .
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As someone familar with ASTM and wikipedia, I'm even having trouble understanding this statement in the "History" heading:
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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If you follow the interwiki links to other language wikipedia, you may begin to understand how narrow this page is. --
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The Italian and Spanish wikipedia mention the ancient history of ASTM International. Relevant to that history, on
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Lets pretend for a moment that lists are allowed on Knowledge. In that case, a list of standards orgs belongs on
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it became the "American Society for Testing Materials" in 1961 before it changed its name to “ASTM International”
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whose primary goals are to develop standards (and enforce, in the case of OSHA). Sound ok on these additions?
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non-English-Knowledge articles as evidence of the world view. No, just kidding - Wikepedia articles are
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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Does anyone here have access to JSTOR and care to write a synopsis of this article so we can cite it? --
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pages to which this one should be linked, but that a job for someone who knows a lot about standards.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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In any case, if you're at a loss about what to write then leave it for someone else to do. --
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https://web.archive.org/20051119212130/http://www.tc.gc.ca:80/tdc/summary/14000/14063e.htm
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be worth mentioning is that their headquarters were at A, but then moved to B in XXXX.
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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Likely to emphasize it's now international scope rather than strictly American.
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I don't see how this is important to the article. Perhaps the only thing that
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Was the name change an attempt to distance itself from its American origins?
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Ah, bugger. So really, the only "See also" links on this page should be for
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
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is borderline not allowed in wikipedia, being little more than a list.
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The ASTM headquarters was formerly in the 1800 block of Race Street on
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An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
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Some more (and interesting) material about IATM and Charles Dudley is
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in Philadelphia, but they moved out and their building was sold to
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
772:. Re materials standards, doesn't NIST belong on your list too?
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Is it a metric system - or imperial american measure system???
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detailed explanation of the problem. Rlsheehan July 20, 2007
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Yeah, so some of these links are definitely questionable. The
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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It's sounds like pure marketing bullcrap to me. Remove it.
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However, I do agree that sources may need to be cited. --
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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Some of these links seem very appropriate, such as the
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Furthermore, the name change is not well explained.
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19:This is the
1426:Nikolaj1905
1297:Immediatist
1227:Immediatist
1074:—Preceding
667:references
281:Engineering
272:engineering
228:Engineering
148:free images
31:not a forum
1503:Categories
1039:James Hade
1394:this tool
1387:this tool
1243:Wizard191
1162:Wizard191
1143:DThomsen8
1115:Wizard191
1100:DThomsen8
1059:Rlsheehan
1016:Una Smith
1003:Una Smith
965:Una Smith
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911:Una Smith
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872:Una Smith
849:Una Smith
774:Una Smith
768:, not on
693:Una Smith
681:Una Smith
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558:Una Smith
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1400:Cheers.—
1333:cbignore
1076:unsigned
927:adequate
842:deleted
568:AOL Alex
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1410::Online
1362:checked
1327:my edit
987:History
606:website
529:on the
397:on the
308:on the
199:C-class
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
1341:nobots
736:AASHTO
495:Alerts
205:scale.
126:Google
1158:might
993:JSTOR
941:inter
835:intro
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1488:talk
1474:talk
1458:talk
1430:talk
1366:true
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1104:talk
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1014:. --
1012:here
734:and
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726:talk
715:The
711:Hey!
625:talk
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
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521:Low
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