760:) behavior stems from his ability to lie well (365b). Socrates argues that Achilles is a cunning liar who throws people off the scent of his own deceptions and that cunning liars are actually the "best" liars. Consequently, Odysseus was equally false and true and so was Achilles (369b). Socrates proposes, possibly for the sheer dialectical fun of it, that it is better to do evil voluntarily than involuntarily. His case rests largely on the analogy with athletic skills, such as running and wrestling. He says that a runner or wrestler who deliberately sandbags is better than the one who plods along because he can do no better.
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subjects. The simple man might accidentally tell the truth when asked a question because he does not actually know the answer and is guessing while the knowledgeable has access to both true and false and can tell the false from the true always. Socrates never indicates what a man might stand to gain from lying about such matters, but brings the conversation back around to
Achilles, and what kind of man Homer intended to portray.
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923:, IX, 357–363.) If Achilles is so shifty that even Odysseus, whose middle name is cunning, cannot spot it, Achilles must be the better liar. Achilles, of course, never carried out his threat to leave, but remained at his camp. Hippias, quite foolishly, insists that Achilles told two different stories "in innocence."
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do. Socrates does not object to
Hippias' literalism, and seems to abandon the literary question, saying that Homer is dead, and the thing cannot be resolved (365d). He tells Hippias that because he agrees with Homer that a simple and true man is better than a wily and cunning one, he will let him speak for Homer.
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most recent display of oratory concerned who is the better man, Achilles or
Odysseus. Socrates says that he could not follow his argument, but did not want to interrupt. Now that the three men are separated from the crowd, Socrates, encouraged by Eudicus, quizzes Hippias on the particulars of his opinion.
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that he fools even
Odysseus, who never notices his duplicity (371a). Citing the passages where Achilles tells Odysseus that he will not rejoin the war but will sail away with the early dawn, and Ajax a different story, that he will wait for Hector to come and burn his ship and tent himself. Socrates
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Socrates invokes a comparison between athletic competitions and debate. He argues that a runner or wrestler who throws the contest by doing worse than he is capable of doing is a more skillful combatant than the one who does his best and loses. Socrates multiplies the analogy, adding that, whether
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Hippias if Homer has not portrayed Achilles as a wily man. Hippias counters that Achilles is the most straightforward of men, simple and true, and cites a passage where Achilles declares his hatred for men who think one thing and say another, or who do not do what they say they will
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The sophist
Hippias is visiting Athens from his home city of Elis on the occasion of the Olympic festival. An artisan, poet, rhetor, astronomer and arithmetician, Hippias has also appointed himself an expert on Homer. He has been favoring the crowds with displays of his literary opinions. Hippias'
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objects, saying that the laws punish people who harm others deliberately with purposeful lies, and are more apt to excuse those who do harm by making mistakes. Socrates insists that those who injure people, tell deliberate lies, and err voluntarily are better than people who simply make mistakes
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Socrates convinces
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Socrates gets
Hippias to agree that the more a man knows about a subject, the better position he will be in to lie about it. He argues that the man who knows the subjects about which he tells lies, whether arithmetic, geometry, or astronomy, is twice as powerful as the man who does not know his
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The debate is rooted in a literary question about whom Homer intended to portray as the better man, Achilles or
Odysseus. Socrates says he has heard Eudicus' father, Apemantus, declare that there is a parallel analogy between the artistic quality of the Iliad and the moral quality of its main
816:. Socrates says in the Crito that a man should never intentionally commit injustice. In this dialogue, he says that a man who does wrong intentionally is better than the man who does it unwittingly. However, in this dialogue, he also says that he changes his opinion on this from time to time.
874:, Socrates argues with Hippias about which kind of liar is the best, the man who deliberately contrives a lie, or the man who lies unwittingly, from not paying attention to what he is saying, or changing his mind. Socrates argues that the voluntary lie is better than the involuntary lie.
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character, Achilles, and the quality of the
Odyssey and the quality of its main character, Odysseus. The men do not pursue this thesis, that the moral status of the characters in a work of literature has some bearing on its artistry. Socrates does resurrect the idea in the
935:(372d). Hippias suspects at this point that Socrates is being dishonest in the debate. Socrates counters that if he is troublesome, it is unintentional, that if he were being difficult deliberately, then he would be wily, which he is not. This is a kind of
71:, is a useful starting point for translations, but translators must revise errors as necessary and confirm that the translation is accurate, rather than simply copy-pasting machine-translated text into the English Knowledge.
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it is a singer off key, a gymnast who appears ungraceful, or a man who pretends to be lame or blind, it is always better to have the power to do it right and pretend to do it wrong than to be helpless to do it right.
884:, however, when he argues that Homer's classics would be better books if Achilles and the other warriors were presented as always righteous. Socrates says that they ought to be rewritten to this effect.
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without preparation. Plato presents him as setting himself up as an expert on Homeric criticism, and over-reaching his expertise. Hippias is exactly the sort of man Socrates complains about in the
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861:. He admires Hippias, and his role in the dialogue is as a facilitator. He is likely in this dialogue only so that Socrates would not have to engage with a sophist on his own accord.
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800:. The fact that the dialogue ends with the conclusion being that it is better to lie voluntarily than involuntarily also contradicts many of Plato's later dialogues.
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36:You can help
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223:The Republic
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193:Epistemology
104:edit summary
95:
75:
45:
37:
18:
2498:Anima mundi
2455:Theia mania
2272:Definitions
2255:Of doubtful
1906:Oeconomicus
1899:Memorabilia
1576:(1971 film)
1568:(1966 film)
1506:(2007 play)
1490:(1759 play)
995:HUP listing
836:mathematics
798:Antisthenes
782:, V, 120),
779:Metaphysics
534:Definitions
2704:Categories
2561:Myth of Er
2521:Allegories
2427:Sophrosyne
2403:Philosophy
2344:On Justice
2330:Hipparchus
2238:Theaetetus
2203:Protagoras
2175:Parmenides
2091:Euthydemus
1860:Theaetetus
1804:Protagoras
1776:Parmenides
1762:On Justice
1699:Hipparchus
1671:Euthydemus
1514:Literature
1471:The Clouds
1393:Lamprocles
1381:Phaenarete
1047:References
901:Wise liars
804:Characters
789:De Oratore
757:πολύτροπος
541:On Justice
429:Protagoras
422:Euthydemus
380:Hipparchus
338:Parmenides
317:Theaetetus
263:Myth of Er
2720:Deception
2448:Peritrope
2351:On Virtue
2279:Demodocus
2231:Symposium
2224:Statesman
2161:Menexenus
2098:Euthyphro
2063:Clitophon
2056:Charmides
1972:Peritrope
1913:Symposium
1853:Symposium
1846:Statesman
1769:On Virtue
1741:Menexenus
1678:Euthyphro
1650:Demodocus
1622:Clitophon
1615:Charmides
1585:Dialogues
1399:Menexenus
1387:Xanthippe
971:Paul Chan
840:astronomy
774:Aristotle
555:Demodocus
548:On Virtue
478:Clitophon
471:Menexenus
401:Charmides
352:Symposium
331:Statesman
282:Euthyphro
155:Platonism
122:talk page
74:Consider
42:in German
2617:Republic
2541:The Cave
2531:Atlantis
2504:Demiurge
2441:Amanesis
2372:Sisyphus
2300:Epistles
2293:Epinomis
2286:Epigrams
2265:Axiochus
2210:Republic
2196:Philebus
2189:Phaedrus
2070:Cratylus
1994:Category
1884:Xenophon
1832:Sisyphus
1811:Republic
1797:Philebus
1790:Phaedrus
1657:Epinomis
1629:Cratylus
1608:Axiochus
1573:Socrates
1487:Socrates
1452:Socrates
1421:Socrates
1383:(mother)
1377:(father)
1297:Concepts
1242:Socrates
1206:LibriVox
881:Republic
844:rhetoric
810:Socrates
768:Despite
752:Odysseus
748:Achilles
740:polymath
731:On Lying
590:Epigrams
583:Axiochus
562:Sisyphus
527:Epistles
520:Epinomis
485:Republic
359:Phaedrus
345:Philebus
310:Cratylus
213:Atlantis
208:Demiurge
147:a series
145:Part of
98:provide
2551:The Sun
2379:Theages
2323:Halcyon
2316:Eryxias
2245:Timaeus
2217:Sophist
2112:Gorgias
2077:Critias
2049:Apology
1954:Related
1931:Halcyon
1892:Apology
1874:Timaeus
1867:Theages
1839:Sophist
1692:Gorgias
1664:Eryxias
1636:Critias
1601:Apology
1495:Socrate
1419:include
1343:Phrases
1085:"Alain"
932:Hippias
852:Apology
848:Olympia
824:sophist
820:Hippias
576:Eryxias
569:Halcyon
499:Critias
492:Timaeus
436:Gorgias
394:Theages
324:Sophist
289:Apology
120:to the
102:in the
44:.
2598:Legacy
2182:Phaedo
2140:Laches
1783:Phaedo
1727:Laches
1407:(wife)
1389:(wife)
1368:Family
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1103:Platon
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1089:Platon
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859:Athens
784:Cicero
728:), or
408:Laches
303:Phaedo
2715:Lying
2337:Minos
2154:Lysis
2084:Crito
2041:Works
2034:Plato
1923:Other
1755:Minos
1734:Lysis
1643:Crito
1593:Plato
1549:Other
1463:Stage
1415:Works
1405:Myrto
1401:(son)
1395:(son)
961:Texts
921:Iliad
916:Iliad
814:Crito
744:Homer
736:Plato
722:Greek
658:Plato
506:Minos
415:Lysis
296:Crito
65:DeepL
2571:Life
2168:Meno
2147:Laws
1748:Meno
1417:that
1267:Life
1135:ISBN
1121:ISBN
1107:ISBN
1093:ISBN
1037:ISBN
1024:ISBN
1011:ISBN
988:ISBN
975:ISBN
842:and
828:Elis
786:(in
776:(in
513:Laws
443:Meno
173:Life
96:must
94:You
58:View
2675:229
2670:228
2133:Ion
1720:Ion
1428:Art
1183:at
870:In
464:Ion
67:or
2706::
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2660:23
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2012:v
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