Knowledge:Knowledge Signpost/2023-09-16/News and notes

1667:: did it? We saw question 1, "can maps be valid sources?" as a no-brainer, especially when tables, charts, and graphs were thrown in. The fact that a significant number of editors, especially well-respected ones, were opposing such a softball question was an ominous sign for the future and signified that a large portion of the opposition was more interested in a certain conclusion being reached (that would de facto result in the end of covering roads in any sort of intellectually honest manner on Knowledge) than in looking at the question in a fair and unbiased manner. This was not to mention the numerous vitriolic personal attacks and casting of aspersions that were made there. The failure of the other proposals had already been used to attack long-standing methods of sourcing in road articles, for example at 103: 2909:

the board has some functions that they just can't give away. My question is "who told you that they would be giving these functions away?" If they did do this, you were being misled, so please name specific people and include diffs. The other side of the question is "have you just been misleading yourselves?" Sorry to be so direct, but somebody has to be. The board cannot give up control of several major functions, to anonymous people (who might perhaps be sockpuppets) who might be elected anonymously, in order that the foundation can be responsible for dealing with the outside world, which would like to know that we're being legally responsible, paying our bills, and trying to fulfill our stated purpose.

2159:: You aren't the only one who hopes for a future reunification. But for now, there's clearly a trust deficit, and others have pointed to the mental/emotional toll that Knowledge politics have taken on them. Steering a giant multinational conglomerate of a wiki is hard work! So maybe a split is the healthiest move. If roads editors get to spend more time churning out articles than talk page posts, that's a long-term win for readers, wherever the content ends up. I have no evidence to back this up, but I suspect that articles written by happy editors end up being higher quality. If not, at least these editors – fellow human beings – get some quality of life back. 2204:

about notability, sources for most things could be found as mentioned above. Rather, whenever there is a strong group of people working together, it is a threat to wikipedia's sense of egalitarianism. If the "road editors" are able to group together in AfD, or on page edits, the non-road-editors will find that threatening. Particularly if there are off-site communications and forums. The end result will be bad faith. From there it's a matter of time before people leave or give up. Thus we might reconsider how to handle this phenomenon of sub-group communities, when problem arise. Surely there are lessons from groups that work. --

2691:

on. There are more important things to focus on. In some cases, this behavior I'm seeing has the outward appearance of being driven by spite and petty grudges (though I could be very wrong in that assessment, just my two cents). The other reason, if I had to take a guess, is the idea that the AARoads fork could start a domino effect that causes the current deletionist trend and rhetoric to backfire on its proponents. Because it will. And if it keeps up, there will be more forks to follow, guaranteed. AARoads Wiki is a warning sign and because of that, they see it as a threat to their goals and asperations.—

732: 1897:

Honestly, I share your skepticism about Knowledge forks in general. I've been around long enough to chuckle at failed forks of multiple Wikipedias that I've been a part of. But I also appreciated the modicum of competition for mindshare that the more serious forks provided Knowledge. If that resulted in a stronger, more useful Knowledge, what is there to complain about? That said, this situation feels slightly different to me because the AARoads folks are being ruthlessly realistic about their scope and ambitions, something that previous forks could have learned from.

2255:

of editors working on similar incompatible projects learn this lesson and follow suit. It's not a breakup, it's just about not trying to put a square peg (like someone looking at a map and writing what they see) in a round hole (an encyclopedia that summarizes secondary sources rather than publishing original analysis). Breakups are sometimes healthy and productive, as sometimes some partners really are better off separate than together. People who want to write articles about topics for which there is no GNG sourcing, and Knowledge, are two such partners.

2996:

setting up all WMF projects and helping anybody in the world to edit them, as well as providing the infrastructure. The comparing of these responsibilities is like comparing an apple orchard to a couple of orange seeds. How would you possibly run a membership organization where anybody in the world can join at anytime? BTW, in my experience the WMF is much more transparent that than WMDE, e.g. with finances. Maybe it's because I don't speak German, but I can't even find their basic financial statements (can anybody give me a link?)

638: 188: 347:@Lyzzy and The Land: hi, the external legal review was provided pro bono by a reputable multinational law firm, based on information provided by the MCDC. Under the terms of this engagement, the law firm’s services were limited to providing advice to the Wikimedia Foundation only, and their work product was not intended for publication. In the interests of transparency for this project, they have permitted us to share this document here without attribution. Thanks, RamzyM (WMF) (talk) 03:42, 9 August 2023 (UTC) 110: 3131:(i.e. 100% community) as outside uninterested perspectives help prevent corruption or self-dealing, as well as grants diverse perspectives. Look at how many admins on the English Knowledge have been desysopped because they played buddy-buddy with certain people. Someone appointed from outside doesn't have the connections within the community to have conflicts of interest like that. They can also bring perspectives from other non-profits or corporations on ways to make our movement better, reducing groupthink. 395: 130: 847: 2665:

apparently since the beginning (this can be seen in the TikTok video where the speaker confuses generally and typically and has to correct themselves). A lot of people *think* it says generally, but the version the community endorsed says typically and thats where this conflict seems to stem from. Also note that while I can't speak for anyone else I'm not a deletionist, I'm a moderate inclusionist with a massively positive creation to deletion ratio and a slightly positive vote balance at AfD.

3265: 3165: 1175:, so it can run on a skeleton crew, but there just hasn't been participation. The nomination process is the most active part, but even there, there isn't a sufficient stable of regulars to help build a good culture (I'd ideally like to see it become a place that helps reduce systemic bias rather than becoming cluttered with nominations of articles in editors' favorite subject areas, which has the opposite effect). And then the articles that do become AFI barely get any attention. 999: 90: 2592:

new territory... Where they effectively institutionalized brigading by instituting a strict one account one vote policy in a safe environment where they controlled access to accounts and once again had great superiority of numbers. Just an alternative way to look at the same set of facts. Note that in theory a dedicated group of editors could do this sort of thing repeatedly, forking whenever they lost the numerical advantage.

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even if successful, it would have come at a great personal cost (time, energy, mental health). Knowledge is (or was) a great website, but it's just a website, we're all volunteers, and this is supposed to be a hobby. So we chose to fork at this point because we care about our editor base and did not want to lose them in a never-ending sea of discussion after discussion aimed at eliminating us from the project.

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there are many communities where you’ll easily find skepticism and cynicism about Knowledge based on bad first impressions. (I list myself as a member of USRD but have always been on the periphery, as a generalist. Still, I know the feeling well from over a decade of trying to bring the Knowledge and OSM communities closer together, and just in ordinary interactions with laypeople.)

1493:

to justify an article's existence than you do actually writing it. I was here because I liked doing research and writing articles, not because I wanted to play policy grab-ass with whatever random municipal code enforcement wannabee stumbled onto the project talk page that particular day. Editing AARoads is actually fun, like Knowledge was when I first joined (but isn't anymore). —

650: 1109:: it led to the departure of a long-standing and prolific editor who will be missed by many editors. Last month's "News and notes" said it was compiled in a hurry, and was only 5 days after the end of the case, but I was surprised not to see a mention this time. (I know, "Sofixit", but I don't have the energy to produce a calm neutral summary of those weeks and walls of text.) 403: 2000:

today, which I think is pretty clearly more of a positive than a negative unless you're a no-nonsense academic who incorrectly thinks this site is exclusively supposed to house work worthy of inclusion in a PhD thesis. But now the removal of this type of content has become the obsession of several people who fit this description, so we need somewhere else to put our work.

150: 400: 699:. Over the past few months, the U4C Building Committee worked together as a group to discuss and draft the U4C charter. The U4C Building Committee welcomes feedback about the draft charter now through 22 September 2023. After that date, the U4C Building Committee will revise the charter as needed and a community vote will open shortly afterward. 1860:

will be less opportunity for Knowledge's readers to stumble upon a well-researched road article and fall down that rabbit hole, maybe catching the roadgeek bug before the night is through. On the other hand, it could bring more visibility to the topic area among netizens in general, just as other specialized wikis have over the years.

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fully with OpenStreetMap than we do. Links from ENWP to their site will sometimes be appropriate; citations maybe not. It's kind of like what I sometimes do in Simple English WP, linking to the corresponding Citizendium article (Remember Citizendium? Been teetering on the edge of death for years.) when appropriate.

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filterable and searchable tables!). The fictional characters database is also better for another website (with fair use images that aren't licensed CC!). It's high time we all got on the same page about being on different pages. This is a big step that should save everybody time going forward, I'm glad to see it.

2860:. Anyone forming strong sub-communities within Knowledge need to understand they may be attacked, and prepare for that eventuality. Having a place to jump ship is probably the best option, unless it's Wikipediocracy which is the worse place to end up, like a dive bar, last refuge of losers with dog whistles. -- 1351:

to it (sources) it is notable. However AI requires high quality input data, and sites like AARoads provide that. The more data AI has, the better. Gaps in knowledge reduce effectiveness. AI is not the only use of this data, but it is a good example how the Knowledge model of notability is limiting knowledge. --

3244:, there were only 5922 votes. That's pretty low and a small group of devoted people could result in a board that isn't representative of the broader community. Also, the WMF isn't a membership organization. It holds elections, but there's no mechanism for forcing the election to be held in a certain way. 2886:

Unless there are structural reforms of the By Laws / WMF so that 100% of WMF (except Jimbo) is elected by the community and only the community can change the byLaws, the Global Council is another way to get WMF back on course and keep it there. The Global Council should start out as equal authority

2826:

was right in calling you "deletionists". It's an apt descriptor. And you don't like that it's true. That's why you're trying to make yourselves sound better by hiding behind this "curationists" name. Try to make it sound like your doing something worthwhile, when you're really contributing nothing of

2254:

the English Knowledge bubble as well :-) I watched the linked TikTok and I thought it was a good summary of the issues: the project of writing about every road cannot be done within the confines of enwiki policy. The solution is to do the roads project somewhere other than enwiki. I hope other groups

1991:

There's the disconnect. Given that most of the friction here is on account of the content even being allowed to exist on the site, being able to host it on our own terms makes the fork automatically a success. (Highly recommend giving any of the discussion on the GEOLAND talk page another read if you

1872:

Yes, the internet is dominated by search results, and Google heavily downranks forks/upranks Knowledge. A decade out, Wikivoyage has been unable to overcome that challenge despite having clearly superior content to Wikitravel. AARoads' wiki will fail. The only question is whether it will fail quickly

1760:

That AARoads has been around since 2000 doesn't mean it's not obscure, and it's my opinion that this fork will end up like the others: 1) a lot of wasted/duplicated effort that's wasted on a few readers and 2) a dwindling number of editors as people inevitably drift away over time and no one replaces

1306:

AARoads is interesting. Let's assume they succeed and are better than Knowledge versions - more up to date, comprehensive. In theory we can copy their content, but this is difficult to maintain, merging diffs would be a hell that never ends. Another possibility is to simply join them ie. redirect our

419:

The Wikimedia Foundation is piloting a new approach to contributor growth in Africa (see presentation, pictured), noting that past approaches aimed at increasing coverage of African topics – and thus the amount of time African citizens spend online reading internet coverage of African affairs – have

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The movement strategy process and especially the work of the Roles and Responsibilities working group did give a baseline of what we as a movement wanted to achieve (some said that the recommendations did not go far enough in distributing the "power" within the movement but let's leave that aside for

2183:

I'm very happy to see WikiRoads finally fork. It's a best-of-both-worlds solution; AARoads and Knowledge will both be better off for it. I hope some of the other WikiProjects/editor-groups follow suit, those dedicated to creating comprehensive databases of certain topics (roads, trains, video games,

2114:

Thats a shame, IMO its important for everyone to understand why this happened because as it stands I don't think anyone actually does... A lot of people think they do, but nobody has the full picture. I appreciate that this conversation has been frustrating for you and you're well within your rights

1512:

What I don't understand is that it is so easy to avoid those "boring and tedious policy games". There are so many articles left to be created that are easy to demonstrate meet and exceed the standards of GNG and whose notability will be in no way controversial; editors who wish to avoid debates over

1492:

More to the point, one thing that I haven't seen brought up in many discussions of the fork is that Knowledge editing environment has simply become too obnoxious for the road editors to want to deal with anymore. On Knowledge, you are forced to spend more time playing boring and tedious policy games

1327:

I think the general consensus is that most of these roads are entirely mundane and it's unreasonable for an encyclopedia to maintain articles on them when there's virtually no meaningful coverage beyond "it appeared in an atlas". Frustration with that fact is what prompted them to leave in the first

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Thanks Ramzy. Could this be changed for future legal reviews so that the name of the firm, the terms of their commission and their full opinion are shared? Without this information I don't think the document will fulfill its purpose. Thanks, Chris Keating (The Land) (talk) 10:41, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

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There were many comments on the draft on the Global Council. All were characterized by disappointment, outrage, or resignation. Many community members felt their assumption confirmed that the Wikimedia Foundation was unwilling to share powers. The "equity in decision-making" promised by the MCDC and

3251:

The WMF board as it stands now has done a pretty good job all things considered. They don't steal money and they prevent WMF execs from stealing money. They've also helped prevent major scandals (might be jinxing it but I haven't heard of a big sexual harassment case yet). There are a heck of a lot

3134:

Also, elections don't always lead to diverse candidates. Looking at the elected positions, all but 1 are from Western Europe or North America. There are no elected board members who are from India, Pakistan, Africa, or South America. Makes sense, given that Western Europe and North America hold our

2425:

Knowledge might look like (whether English or multilingual) and I'm wondering if something like abstract might allow the two to coexist with mostly the same editor pool and easy transfer of changes across... editions, let's call it, the same way people wish for it to help with cross language stuff.

1787:

It was clear that this would just be the first of a long series of debates, and given the spread to other areas such as area codes, that what would be needed would essentially be a campaign to Save Knowledge. Speaking for myself - maybe ten years ago I could have done such a thing, but not now, and

1750:

how Knowledge functions, and despite the high volume (Scott's participation there appears to have been enormously unhelpful) there are only a small number of editors participating. I would hope/expect things to change if/when it hits the RfC phase, much like how that first link appears to be facing

1692:

The fork focuses on North America because that is the largest editor base, but many efforts were made to reach out to other international editors. We still intend to expand to other countries one day, but it would be hypocritical of us to mass import a bunch of unsourced stubs without attempting to

1531:

I wish them prosperity in their independence. That doesn't mean they were right in the various controversies they suffered here in the Empire; I just hope they can contribute better to their particular corner of the world now that they are outside. Particularly, they might be able to cooperate more

1350:

Yes, AfD was probably hard on them like many topics (sports, BLPs, small organizations). How this information gets used and how important it is has been totally upended by generative AI. Knowledge basis notability on a somewhat outdated model, that of the attention economy: if people paid attention

1281:

There are not many potential editors (few%), and they are very different and they have different interests. Knowledge, sister projects and related organizations ("Wikimedia movement") are not a simple product of literacy, Internet speed, particular language, social group, education, gender, "race",

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is underestimated or misunderstood. There are not many suitable opportunities to influence the community and the influx of new members. Knowledge and its sister projects can be compared to a network of networks or to forests (self-sustaining ecosystems), but with actual people. You can't just bring

295:

From the draft text it seems clear that there is no intention for the GC to exert any control over the funds within the WMF, especially since it is not even clear where the funds for the GC itself will come from. This is understandable if this power, for legal reasons, needs to reside with the BoT.

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implies, it would be very, very difficult - likely impossible - for the WMF to give up total control, especially for some very basic functions such as fund raising, spending money, electing board members. This applies to any US corporation, and likely all non-US corporations and for-profit corps,

2690:

I find it funny how there are individuals here spending and wasting so much time putting down the project and trying to make AARoads and USRD look bad in this discussion, rather than just move after saying good riddance. Can't even let the project just leave in peace? Be the bigger person and move

2591:

Another way to look at this is that a group of editors got away with enforcing a set of rules unendorsed by the wider community through brigading, but brigading stopped being an effective tool when massive community wide discussions like the maps one happened and this group of editors retreated to

2300:

does not also need to have an article about every road in New Jersey. The roads information is much better suited for a separate website that specializes in roads information (with lots of interactive maps!). The sports statistics information is similarly better suited for a separate website (with

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There are reputable law firms in the US that bring the necessary expertise in designing inter-nonprofit legal relationships, and that have not had WMF as a client previously. WMDE suggests that it may be time to figure out together how we can commission this expertise, so that we can have a fuller

2568:

I've always thought of consensus as a necessary complexity to put a finger on the scale towards consistency of decisions; it allows policies and guidelines to affect results, regardless of who turns up at the debate. However, I do wonder if for a project with a narrower scope and more homogeneous

2333:

It's not arbitrary: it's about summarizing secondary sources vs writing a secondary source. There are some editors who want to write a secondary source (about roads, individual athletes, Pokémon characters, etc.) and there also other editors (hundreds of thousands) who want to summarize secondary

2225:

It hasn’t been my perception that WikiProject U.S. Roads saw things as us-versus-them from the outset. If anything, its members saw themselves as bona fide Wikipedians and quite often served as apologists for Knowledge among the broader roadgeek community. Outside of the English Knowledge bubble,

1995:

We're really not trying to do anything too crufty and most of our research standards are going to be the same as they were when the content was still hosted on enwiki (on account of having most of the same core userbase if nothing else). The critical benefit is that we can now consistently decide

1859:

I think it's comparing apples and oranges, or maybe pumpkins and kumquats. On an Internet dominated by search engines, a road-focused site doesn't even need to come within a few orders of magnitude to have a significant impact. Going independent will probably cut both ways. On the one hand, there

1555:

would apply to a specialized fork such as the AARoads Wiki. I assume the guideline arose to avoid a heap of links to content mills, but this wiki certainly doesn't fit that description. Anyways, if its editors' fears of Knowledge policy creep are borne out, then links to the AARoads Wiki would be

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The Foundation's analysis also highlights that "Too much programmatic outreach work in the region is ineffectively carried out by volunteers who have insufficient familiarity" with the platform, the policies (e.g. on copyright and licensing) and the culture of Wikimedia projects. Accordingly, the

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Knowledge would be lucky to have dedicated and devoted editors within topic areas, and it is an unquestionable loss when they can not be accommodated. My sense is they left not because of concerns with maintaining the pages, the "road editors" could do that; or even because of differing opinions

1999:

The fact is that for any subject that exists, there are details on that subject that are 1) necessary to include for comprehensive coverage, but 2) of little individual importance to a general audience. The existence of those little details is what originally gave Knowledge the reputation it has

1896:

You're more optimistic about the English Knowledge retaining road articles on notability grounds than some of the AARoads folks are. To the extent that Google will see significant duplication, it'll undermine the rhetoric in this discussion about how USRD was wrong about notability and sourcing.

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My RfC thought was an opinion ("what I saw"), not an factual assertion. The proposal passed with the closer stating "it is clear that the policy rationales provided by those opposing were not particularly strong", which is ... telling. And again, proposal 3 was awfully close to passing and might

282:

So reading the current drafts makes me wonder what happened? One of the most important aspects of the recommendations was the equity in decision making within our movement. Reducing this by (for example) reducing the global council to an advisory body is not something that I had expected to read

3252:

of non-profits that are worse. I think community representation at 50% is fine. Bureaucratic inertia is good because stability of the organization overseeing one of the most visited websites on the Internet is more valuable than a board that would be entirely elected by less than 10,000 people.

2987:

Just one thing about my last sentence above. I realize now that some people might read it as if I am assuming that Global Council members are sockpuppets or similar. What I mean is that the WMF board is responsible for making sure that their members are responsible people with their real names

2454:

I fully agree with this; I would support the creation of sports.wikipedia.org, roads.wikipedia.org, and any other wikiprojects that could function as a comprehensive database of the topic, and support us limiting the coverage in our encyclopedia to topics worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia.

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that one simply cannot get by holing up in the project namespace. For better or worse, this same perspective makes it easier to see Knowledge as just another crowdsourced encyclopedia. To the extent that there was off-site collaboration among the USRD members, I have to imagine that it would’ve

2024:

None of the friction here is "on account of the content even being allowed to exist on the site" the two sides here are "should have dedicated articles" and "should be in a list or article about the state highway system." There is no "purge this content from the site" side as far as I am aware.

2995:

I'm not sure what the Wikimedia Germany factoid is supposed to mean. WMDE is a membership organization for one country that's supposed to aid German residents (about 1% of world population) edit Knowledge projects - concentrating on the German WP version most likely. The WMF is responsible for

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Thats interesting and I appreciate your candor, from my perspective its actually those saying that every state highway is notable saying "GEOROAD be damned" because GEOROAD doesn't support that. What I'm understanding is that there's been a mismatch between the wording and spirit of GEOROAD

1406:

Regarding the data argument, a wider scope won't lead to higher-quality content unless there are more contributors. In fact, generally the opposite, since more dispersed content is harder to maintain. And there's no reason to believe that AARoads will have more contributors than the roads

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states that "much of the content was forked from the English Knowledge in mid-2023," and that "After several months of extended discussions and uneven enforcement of policies towards the road subject area, many felt that starting a new project with a new community solely focused on road

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I don't know if you noticed, but above a few of us were encouraging completionist forks. Completionism doesn't align with the purposes of an encyclopedia, and so it is neither suitable nor beneficial here, but that doesn't mean it isn't suitable or beneficial at specialized Wiki's.

2529:

That seems like a risky strategy, insofar as it sets up a series of conflicts with groups of fans, any one of which could wind up setting a completionist precedent that would endanger your aims. Wouldn't it make more sense to pull a core of notable articles onto something like a

829:(which has attracted 48k likes at the time of writing), one of the seceding editors explains the underlying concerns in more detail, arguing that "in the past couple of years, our little corner of the site has come under attack two reasons: sourcing and notability". An earlier 2315:

Okay. So now you have to find road (or sports, or whatever) editors who want to only write about what Knowledge arbitrarily defines as notable, rather than what they actually believe is worthy of inclusion. Good luck. (And, we certainly never wanted to write about every road.)

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and more neutral understanding of what is actually possible – to ultimately arrive at a governance structure that does justice to our movement and its diverse stakeholders and lets us move towards the strategic direction. Nicola Zeuner (WMDE) (talk) 10:50, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

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And just for the record: WMDE has more than 100.000 members by now. Meaning the basic operation could be entirely funded by membership fees alone. The fundraiser is necessary for contributing WMF and for covering the activities that benefit the global projects (WikiData).

2794:

This is absolutely a loss for Knowledge, despite what some in this discussion would like to think and claim. We just lost dozens of dedicated editors over a pedantic, frankly cultish obsession with absolute adhering to policies and refusing to account for actual reality.

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The elected members would either need 100% support among themselves to execute a takeover from the current state, or manage to convince some of the already appointed board members (who don't really care that much about the Wikimedia movement) to collaborate with

1873:

or fail slowly. It will be better for the content area and reduce duplicated editor effort if it fails quickly. Unfortunately, past precedent shows that failed ideas on wikis tend to wither slowly (see Simple English Knowledge, portals, outline articles, etc.).

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a problem if you're trying to write an article about every road, or every train station, everyone who ever played pro sports, every fictional character, etc. It doesn't make much sense to put all of these together in one website. The website that summarizes

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The legal feedback doesn't reveal the author and it is qualified as an "external legal feedback" at Movement Charter/Content/Global Council. Could you tell us who was the commissioner and who was the author? Alice Wiegand (talk) 20:34, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

2492:

You two had better take it easy. If your actions push more groups into forks, you might have to start editing in the article space because there won't be anyone else left. Regardless, it's no longer my battle, so I really don't care what you do.

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saw the most participation. This included some strong criticism, especially from European Wikimedians. A key point of contention was that the Global Council, as envisaged in the draft, would only have advisory powers. Former WMF board member

2817:

Congratulations, you just chased off dozens of editors, who actually know where to find your precious secondary sources. And I don't see any of you "curationists" knowing what documents you're even looking for, much less where to find them.

1307:

pages to their Wiki. If users want to contribute, they log in there. Like an Empire that is absorbing but not eliminating cultures it encounters. All roads lead to Rome (Knowledge) but not all Roman territory is strictly Roman culture. --

2949:(One thing worth noting here is that Wikimedia Germany is a membership organisation where the members vote for the board – unlike the WMF, which has always argued that a membership organisation is not feasible for the Wikimedia movement.) 2356:

don’t have to look over their shoulder quite as much. After all, GNG is an expression of an internal editorial goal but not the constitutional law of all epistemology. I’ll be very interested to see how this community coexists with the

2039:

Yeah, merging some articles to lists in a seemingly arbitrary fashion necessarily removes some content. You know this, otherwise there'd be no reason your side has been so heavily pushing for it. C'mon buddy, you're smarter than this.

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During the 2022-2023 fiscal year, the Wikimedia Foundation awarded 638 grants to mission-aligned organizations and people around the world, totaling $ 17,512,472 USD. Of these funds, 381 totaling $ 16,032,838 are administered by the

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In particular, a kind of parliament or general assembly was missed, as well as powers beyond those already exercised by various volunteer bodies. There was a clear desire for the Global Council to be more than just an advisory body.

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is projected to be most of the world's population growth into the future. If we want to be a sustainable movement, we need to target that. But we haven't been nearly as effective as we could have been as evidenced by the subheading

1996:

what should and should not be covered and not have to arbitrarily (and yes, it is inherently arbitrary) kill some coverage because people with little to no experience in the subject area have decided that they know more than us.

1705:

again, AARoads has been around since 2000, and given that, of the other options we could have chosen, or going completely independent, this was the option most likely to be around in 10 years. By the way, that includes English

3247:

If a bunch of cliquey people get elected, they can change the rules of the elections to enshrine their power permanently. That would be catastrophic. Appointed board members exercise a moderating force against changes such as

3069:

where you'll find information in English, including links to the financial reports. (Wikimedia Germany's finances are a lot more transparent than those of the Wikimedia Endowment ... and unlike the WMF, it has committed to

3077:

Wikimedia Germany is an organisation with over 100,000 members, a staff headcount of close to 200 people (comparable to the size of the WMF a few years ago) and international movement responsibilities. The development of

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saw somewhat less participation. The Hubs draft also received some praise from community members. Even so, questions and concerns about fundraising and funds dissemination were recurring topics on both feedback pages. –

1803:

seemed (and still seems) like a more palatable option than continuing on English Knowledge as it is. I am grateful that others felt that way and chose to reach out to AARoads, because otherwise I would be down a hobby.

1606:

With respect to the US Roads editors, all of whom I respect, this is all enormously disappointing. First, I haven't seen y'all identify any specific policy changes that you believe are needed, except for those proposed

1774:

a few on London city streets). We believe in sourcing: in the event the decision was made to stay, I had a list of resources and was planning on leading a sourcing drive. We do not believe that proposals such as this

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found a probable paying party and turned up the possibility that the whole episode was an elaborate hoax, based on their off-wiki writings; one participant in the discussion said they found a comment off-wiki stating

2092:

Nah I'm not gonna play y'all's game. Y'all can have fun playing dumb and pretending you're not doing exactly what you're doing but I have actual content to contribute to another wiki that actually values creation.

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I suggest doing more research into AARoads when you have the time. It is most certainly not an obscure website. One only has to take a look at the number of members on the AARoads forums for example to see that.

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You'll have an encyclopedia instead. GNG is not an obstacle when writing encyclopedia articles about science, math, art, history, athletics, etc. It's not a problem when writing about transportation, either. It

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I appreciate your thoughts. Before I respond in detail, let me try a proactive question: from the perspective of road editors, what would our policies ideally say? Or are y'all attempting to maintain the status

703: 1581:, and we look up to the ideals that Knowledge stands for, even if the reality is much messier. I hope the community here will continue to embrace its role as the standard-bearer for wiki-style open-mindedness. 758: 681: 296:

But if this is the case the legal limitations should be clearly laid out. We should also consider if such legal limitations are the result of some pre-existing structure or mechanism which could be changed.

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Knowledge in the Future is unlikely to be just Knowledge+, Knowledge 1.2 or even Knowledge 2.0, and the process of its formation will be mostly or partially spontaneous and not very well predicted today,

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I don't think the self-dealing argument holds water here, as it is the (s)elected members who appoint the appointees (so if self-dealing really were an issue, they could appoint like-minded friends ...).

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To be clear, I applaud their decision. I think it's the right move both for their community and for our community, and will result in both better coverage of North American roads and a better Knowledge.

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to WMF and after it matures to be fully stable representative of the community, it should have authority over and direct WMF. Only "advisory" to WMF makes the whole Global Council idea pointless.

1668: 3089:. And the US represents about 4% of the world's population ... Seen from that perspective, both Germany and the US are grossly overrepresented in the Wikimedia movement's organisational footprint. 1799:

I really hope that almost 18 years as an administrator, and even 1 as a steward have shown my commitment to the project. It was not an easy decision, however during several of these discussions

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in rabbits or plant flowers like you would on a farm or in a city park. You can't even open a furniture factory. You cannot manage a community, truly direct its movement, or plan by incentives.

377: 1438:, the problem is that the AARoads wiki won't just have the non-notable roads, but also duplicates of the notable ones on Knowledge. It's the classic problem of wasted effort you get with any 180: 2988:

disclosed, i.e. the WMF board must vet them. If the Global Council has a disagreement with the WMF on how to vet board members, then the WMF vetting method must be followed. That function

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Is there any reason not to say who wrote the document, who commissioned it, and what terms of reference were given? Many thanks, Chris Keating (The Land) (talk) 21:23, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

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wikiproject, especially since it doesn't have all of Knowledge's built-in advantages (e.g. an established readership base, SEO preference, etc.) and will have to compete with Knowledge.

821:." (The latter, an RfC titled "Using maps as sources", had concluded in May and resulted in the addition of a clarification that "Source information does not need to be in text form" to 1757:

I apologize and have struck the inaccuracy comment, having missed that the bullet points specifically referred to notability, but has showing up on a map ever contributed to notability?

606: 234:"a type of support structure to enable a common space for coordinating activities and identifying and advocating for the needs of the communities and organizations they serve") and a 2534:, and it would also sidestep the existing reputation of en.wikipedia as being crammed with miscellaneous knowledge which has received only a cursory vetting for general notability. 707: 1644:

So yeah, I'm disappointed at y'all's decision to embrace a slow but near-certain death on an obscure new website, and I hope that a day will come when you decide to re-join us.

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But if the relationship to the WMF is simply that the GC provides advice which the WMF can then choose to ignore, this runs the risk of becoming a source of potential conflict

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And if it keeps up, there will be more forks to follow, guaranteed. AARoads Wiki is a warning sign and because of that, they see it as a threat to their goals and asperations.

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right this second. Staying here gives y'all the chance to shape and influence related discussions, while leaving detracts valuable perspectives. Sausage doesn't make itself.

2835:, you are incorrect in virtually everything you've said in this discussion, but especially in that final assertion that this result in a "a better Knowledge". It won't.-- 1574:

The AARoads editors have been helping OSM keep up with changes on the ground, which in turn benefits Knowledge's articles about not only roads but also places and events.

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Not every topic is the Second World War, where it's one of the most studied events in history, and you have your pick of the sources. Pallet loads of secondary sources.

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board members from South America and India. Being perfectly representative of our community is a disadvantage here, as we also want representation from the communities

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Hate to break this to the "curationists", and those who pray at the alter of 'No primary sources ever', but not every topic has piles upon piles of secondary sources.

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The AARoads is being established on an admirably democratic basis. The founders seem to have learnt by experience that Knowledge's claims of consensus are false. See

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Yeah absolutely, forking completionism to another site where you can actually have comprehensive directories regardless of sourcing is the right way to go about this.

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to bow out, I wish you the best of luck with your editing wherever that may occur and I sincerely hope that you continue to edit non-roads related content on ewiki.

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got blocked (in August) for using ChatGPT without verifying the invented information was correct, and then not responding to queries on their talk page about it. --

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Really, all we have been attempting to do is maintain the status quo. We believe in notability: I submitted the most road AFDs that I ever have this year (and even

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This would essentially be equivalent to making the board 100% community appointed, so perhaps we should focus on adding some community representation on the board?

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Wikimedia power sharing – just an advisory role for the volunteer community?: Plus: Africa news, funding report, U4C draft, roads fork and another ChatGPT block.

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I was referring obliquely to other language editions that have different inclusion norms, but I guess Wikispecies might as well come into the conversation. 🤔

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This may be the first instance of an indefinite block stemming specifically from the use of the technology in talkpages. A commenter at ANI called their reply

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sources (about transportation, athletics, pop culture, etc.). Combining the two into one website has created much conflict, hopefully that's now decreased.

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I was thinking of Wikidata, or Wikisource... there are Wikimedia projects with radically different inclusion criteria (and yes, some Wikipedias as well).

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On Knowledge, you are forced to spend more time playing boring and tedious policy games to justify an article's existence than you do actually writing it.

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You want me to be honest? It's the numerous backdoor deletion attempts, and it's also you and your deletionist friends tagging highways for notability,

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expressed his deep frustrations about finding himself cleaning up the results of a Google-funded initiative that awarded prizes for adding content to

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is not "simplified", as it claims, but is flatly inaccurate (e.g. "maps cannot be used" when that enormous RfC linked above concluded otherwise).

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Fielding these sentiments on a regular basis gives one a certain perspective about community-building and encyclopedia-writing and encyclopedia-

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the Movement Strategy, allowing a stronger representation of all groups in the Movement, was regarded by many voices as an obviously vain hope.

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Thinking about it, I might open a discussion with the sports communities about sports; it might be a preferable alternative to draftification.

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dwells heavily on concerns with systemic bias and roads outside North America, neither of which are solved by a North American-specific fork.

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AARoads has been around since 2000 - longer than Knowledge, has an established readership base, and already has new non-Knowledge contributors.

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had about the goals and aspirations of curationists (a term I feel is much more accurate than the the hyperbolic "deletionists") like myself.

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be damned. If a state decides "this highway is important, we should maintain it", then it's most certainly important for a Knowledge article.

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As for expertise in Asian, South American or African affairs, this could also be provided by an advisory board (the WMF used to have one).

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userbase a more pure democracy might work better; I wish them luck with the attempt. (I do find it a little amusing that their example is

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resembled an emotional support group in the runup to the decision to leave. People don’t break up after so many years out of sheer malice.

1253:"Some initiatives have caused controversy, such as the $ 20,000 project on Deforestation in Nigeria". More of that under discission here: 1904: 1891: 1213: 1128: 3030: 2844: 1920: 1469:, then it sounds like the "general consensus" is to delete almost all of them. So this duplication of content seems to be a red herring. 432: 1513:

notability should chose to create these articles, rather than choosing to create articles that they should know will be controversial.

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persecution because they're accustomed to not having to do so. Why there weren't equitable standards in the first place is, of course,

1375:, AfD isn't being hard on roads and sports. It's starting to require them to meet the same standards as any other topic, which to them 548:

Similar concerns about attracting mainly extrinsically motivated contributors go back to at least 2010, when Tanzania-based Wikipedian

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I'll avoid gravedancing, but two other users were blocked after using ChatGPT to generate content which included fake references.

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At some point, as more and more of these subject-specific forks emerge, I would suggest reconsidering this crusade on notability.

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In June, another editor had been indeffed for using ChatGPT in articles alone, with paid editing as the underlying concern. Some

93: 21: 1623:. Plus, proposal 3 was awfully close to passing and should have been re-proposed in a new discussion. (And outside all of that, 1322: 808:

on the site's forum, "The team making up the core of the US Roads WikiProject on Knowledge has moved over to the new wiki". An

804:" was launched, "a free online encyclopedia dedicated to roads", forming part of the existing aaroads.com website. According to 200: 3365: 795: 768:. On the other hand, an after-closure discussion started by the author of this article included this observation from another: 387: 918: 867: 373: 3360: 3355: 2171:

Thanks for your perspective, Minh. I hope that despite my pessimism this does indeed end up in best-case scenario territory.

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Staying here gives y'all the chance to shape and influence related discussions, while leaving detracts valuable perspectives

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AFI has definitely been struggling, but not just recently. Its processes are highly automated, thanks to excellent work by

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Except wait, 8/16 seats on the WMF board are elected by the community, 7/16 are appointed by the rest, and 1/16 is Jimbo!

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With my mapper hat on, I'm excited about the opportunity for the AARoads community to collaborate with OpenStreetMap (and

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You make a potentially valid point with regard to regional representation. Though historically, if you look at the chart

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I'm sure there's an active community, and in no way am I intending to insult anyone—but in the grand scheme of things it

1687: 3182:: Note that the current WMF board has 12 members, not 16. (16 is the theoretical maximum size under the current bylaws.) 924: 884: 3350: 3233:

51% of the elected members to participate in a clique that can result in permanent reputational damage to the movement.

3086: 1563:). Together, in just a few months, we've already developed interactive maps that provide a richer user experience and 936: 365: 1328:

place. If this fork means less volunteer energy is spent on maintaining hollow articles, then I say it's a positive.

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You're more than welcome to offer your insider version of events, from your perspective why is a fork being done?

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by another longstanding member of the U.S. Roads WikiProject sheds further light on some longstanding tensions. –

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Or could it be that we don't think thousands of microstubs serve the reader as well as a couple of dozen lists?

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The pilot is currently limited to the English Knowledge and envisaged to run from September to December 2023. –

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AARoads remains the center of the road community in North America, including many who are sworn off Knowledge

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but is flatly inaccurate (e.g. "maps cannot be used" when that enormous RfC linked above concluded otherwise)

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Below are some key graphics from the report. First, an overview of grants and grant money by fund program:

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Candidates must meet the voter eligibility criteria for WMF Board of Trustees elections to file nomination

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is not anonymous. I assume that neither will the Global Council be anonymous. You should stop using your

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solve what I saw as the single biggest problem facing the project—citations to maps, now enshrined at

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form to draft a charter that outlines procedures and details for a global committee to be called the

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I'm sorry the US Roads folks left. The English Knowledge project is worse off as a result of this.

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macropedia.wikimedia.org and build from there? There's already an excellent foundation for that at

1909:

Maybe it would be more accurate and fun to characterize the AARoads Wiki as a specialized fork – a

3232:

I think that's a lot less realistic than the possibility that a 100% elected board could get : -->

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for using ChatGPT to request restoration of their article. In fact, their response in the related

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pilot aims to test the hypothesis that audiovisual training materials on core policies along with

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I pay people to waste the time of volunteers who have innumerable things they'd rather be doing

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To be pedantic, the English Knowledge is not the only Knowledge either. There are some where

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You make such arguments across every subject area and you will no longer have a Knowledge. --

1439: 826: 753: 1850:. For comparison, Similarweb estimates that meta.wikimedia.org gets nearly five times that. 614: 3371: 3128: 3002: 2915: 2607: 2555: 2321: 2274: 2062:

You know this, otherwise there'd be no reason your side has been so heavily pushing for it.

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You’ll easily find skepticism and cynicism about Knowledge based on bad first impressions

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transportation would be a more viable option. A sampling of such discussions can be found

718:. Some commenters stated that the language stopped them from reading the draft in full. – 204: 8: 3237: 2836: 2514: 2483: 2431: 1930: 1497: 1275: 1162: 830: 336:

shared by the WMF, authored by an undisclosed law firm advising the drafting committee:

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result under a pure democracy, but not in the direction it appears they would support.)

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Regional breakdown of funding administered by the Community Resources team, 2015–2023:

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I'm glad to hear that there are plans to expand beyond the North American continent.

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their programs (edit counts and time-since-first-edit are insufficient indicators)

488:, sometimes without intrinsic motivation. We suggest we should have instead been: 3299: 3257: 3157: 3052: 3022: 2997: 2973: 2910: 2649: 2613: 2318: 2271: 1806: 1729: 1712: 1477: 2510: 2479: 2427: 1926: 1494: 1158: 1119: 645:

Overview of WMF-distributed funds not managed by the Community Resources team:

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That RfC did solve what I saw as the single biggest problem facing the project

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I've never seen someone on "my side" use that reasoning, do you have diffs?

967:

Knowledge:Requests for comment/Arbitration Committee Elections December 2023

355:

Wikimedia Germany suggested that alternative legal advice should be sought:

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Wikimedia power sharing – just an advisory role for the volunteer community?

3240:. Board of trustee elections are low turnout and don't have much glory. In 3144: 3038: 1259: 751:

An editor was indeffed after extensive use of AI-generated text, including

1661:

With all due respect, there are so many factual errors in the above post.

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Sadly, whenever sub-communities form and gain strength, it threatens the

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Knowledge:Featured article candidates/Interstate 40 in Tennessee/archive2

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This account is a sock of a banned user, as it was not locked by WMF and

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of its efforts, and the opportunities and challenges involved in Africa (

3202:

All in all, I think the community is underrepresented in the WMF board.

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is a real obstacle would be better served by having their own websites.

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we're all still part of the same information landscape of open knowledge

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I think the system as it stands works well. It's poor form to not have

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aren't convinced that content being removed from enwiki is inevitable.)

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embarrassed by the gloating over this loss. As if it's a good thing.

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myself, but I've noticed there's not much interaction over there...

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Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) draft charter

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at last month's Wikimania conference), highlights the importance of

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still with another RfC. Heck, it might already arguably fall under

1585: 1205: 789: 609:). 2022-2023 marked the second fiscal year of Community Resources' 167: 2373:

True. Instead of AARoads, it could have been roads.wikimedia.org.

1467:

general consensus is that most of these roads are entirely mundane

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Symbol used for the Global Council in the draft Movement Charter

2417:

Slightly unrelatedly, I'm very curious as to what an expansive

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recently invited feedback on the latest draft chapters for the

181:

Global Council draft comes under fire from European Wikimedians

1746:

I do appreciate your second link re: GEOROAD, but discussions

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It's a shame that so much unhappiness led to this point, but

956: 825:. However, other proposals were rejected in the RfC.) In an 2820:

Yet you try to call yourselves "curationists". What a joke.

1567:

than what the Wikimedia Foundation has been able to provide

823:

Knowledge:No_original_research#What_is_not_original_research

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Yeah, wouldn't want to drive all those math editors into

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It's sad that, three weeks on, the lengthy and painful

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exercise due diligence and at least clean them up first.

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Code of conduct committee draft charter ready for review

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The use of unclear or meaningless buzzwords was another

2743:

Not at all. I was just correcting a misconception that

303:

A summary of German Knowledge community discussions by

3330:

Get the latest headlines on your user page – just add

1442:, and it's overall bad for the information landscape. 1133:

There's a rather special one ongoing, too. We'll see.

716:"highly bureaucratic and unnecessarily hard to follow" 697:

Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C)

438:

Some initiatives have caused controversy, such as the

770:

there's no guideline or policy banning empty blather

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User enamored with ChatGPT gets indefinitely blocked

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Knowledge:What SYNTH is not#SYNTH is not obvious II

1089:If your comment has not appeared here, you can try 959:. Please be bold in helping improve these articles! 592:The Wikimedia Foundation last month published its 1947:What do you consider a success? Honest question. 853:Everything is just fine here at English Knowledge 531:If proven effective, our proposed approach would 3381: 1681:And outside all of that, WP:GEOROAD still exists 2509:their cruft somewhere nicer and more stable... 473:Our eagerness to see more programmatic work in 423:Recent projects have included contests such as 3074:of its top management, in English and German.) 1779:are conducive for editor health and retention. 963:Proposed changes to Arbcom election procedures 787:Was the latest case a prank? We can't tell. – 761:also appeared to be the product of ChatGPT. 746:writing an apology for an AI-written article. 541:increasing programmatic funding opportunities 161: 3082:e.g. was mainly driven by Wikimedia Germany. 2854:, or those who pose as oligarchs. It is the 1796:of the notability and sourcing requirements. 572:can achieve significantly higher retention. 440:$ 20,000 project on Deforestation in Nigeria 263:discussion page for the Global Council draft 3135:strongest communities. However, we do have 2761:Notably, those are not mutually exclusive. 1777:source it now or it gets deleted in 2 weeks 714:The committee's language use was mocked as 2184:TV episodes, etc.), all those areas where 1149:On a side note, is it just me, or has the 250:Roles & Responsibilities draft chapter 201:Movement Charter Drafting Committee (MCDC) 3037:platform for spreading disinformation. – 2802:. I am embarrassed as an editor by this. 1785:Does it? To copy what I wrote elsewhere: 1255:User talk:BilledMammal/2023 Wikimedia RfC 533:increase the pool of skilled contributors 481:effectiveness, sometimes even repeatedly. 477:has resulted in funding of projects with 3242:meta:Wikimedia Foundation elections/2022 1689:and you tell me what is going to happen. 1551:: On that point, I've been wondering if 955:. It will be followed the week after by 868:Wikimedians for Offline Wikis User Group 1846:obscure. Per Similarweb, it gets about 1092: 14: 3382: 1553:the guideline against linking to forks 1222:doesn't include this account. Thanks. 588:WMF publishes 2022–2023 Funding Report 1801:quitting and doing absolutely nothing 1260:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 54: 29: 3087:become a member of Wikimedia Germany 3056: 3055:: I don't even know where to begin. 324:Mysterious "external legal feedback" 3390:Knowledge Signpost archives 2023-09 1699:That quote is taken out of context. 27: 1274:In my opinion, the problem of the 1153:slowed down as of late? I've been 997: 845: 730: 648: 636: 624: 524:We have been slow or reluctant to 393: 372:. Overall, the feedback pages for 186: 56: 34: 28: 3401: 1074:These comments are automatically 702:Join the conversation during the 605:team (other funds are summarized 3263: 3163: 3085:You do not have to be German to 3057: 2469:That's a pretty extreme stance. 560:from the July 26, 2010 issue of 486:investing in those who showed up 148: 138: 128: 118: 108: 98: 88: 3192:and the list of former members 3150:WMF reconsiders Africa approach 3072:publishing the current salaries 2857:Knowledge Iron Law of Oligarchy 2732:kick someone when they are down 1220:m:List of globally banned users 969:will be open until 30 September 796:A fork in the Roads WikiProject 742:to create this illustration of 684:is now ready for your review. 672:The U4C Building Committee has 388:WMF reconsiders Africa approach 3321:16:34, 18 September 2023 (UTC) 3306:14:06, 16 September 2023 (UTC) 3274:01:19, 19 September 2023 (UTC) 3217:21:18, 18 September 2023 (UTC) 3174:04:00, 17 September 2023 (UTC) 3108:07:44, 17 September 2023 (UTC) 3047:03:36, 17 September 2023 (UTC) 3010:00:55, 17 September 2023 (UTC) 2979:19:35, 18 September 2023 (UTC) 2964:22:31, 16 September 2023 (UTC) 2923:18:23, 16 September 2023 (UTC) 2899:13:35, 16 September 2023 (UTC) 2781:02:57, 29 September 2023 (UTC) 2766:02:45, 29 September 2023 (UTC) 2757:02:38, 29 September 2023 (UTC) 2739:02:30, 29 September 2023 (UTC) 2726:02:12, 29 September 2023 (UTC) 2707:01:54, 29 September 2023 (UTC) 2675:15:36, 29 September 2023 (UTC) 2660:05:30, 29 September 2023 (UTC) 2638:02:51, 29 September 2023 (UTC) 2624:01:41, 29 September 2023 (UTC) 2602:18:03, 24 September 2023 (UTC) 2587:07:05, 23 September 2023 (UTC) 2564:23:16, 21 September 2023 (UTC) 2552:their discussion of the matter 2544:04:15, 25 September 2023 (UTC) 2519:06:15, 25 September 2023 (UTC) 2501:00:04, 25 September 2023 (UTC) 2488:23:59, 23 September 2023 (UTC) 2474:20:34, 23 September 2023 (UTC) 2465:07:05, 23 September 2023 (UTC) 2440:15:22, 26 September 2023 (UTC) 2409:19:54, 20 September 2023 (UTC) 2395:19:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC) 2383:19:46, 20 September 2023 (UTC) 2369:19:09, 20 September 2023 (UTC) 2361:once it begins to take shape. 2344:18:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC) 2329:18:43, 20 September 2023 (UTC) 2311:18:27, 20 September 2023 (UTC) 2282:18:07, 20 September 2023 (UTC) 2265:17:15, 20 September 2023 (UTC) 2245:16:45, 20 September 2023 (UTC) 2220:16:01, 20 September 2023 (UTC) 2198:14:26, 20 September 2023 (UTC) 2176:02:01, 20 September 2023 (UTC) 2167:01:46, 20 September 2023 (UTC) 2125:15:39, 29 September 2023 (UTC) 2110:05:23, 29 September 2023 (UTC) 2088:02:48, 29 September 2023 (UTC) 2074:02:40, 29 September 2023 (UTC) 2057:02:33, 29 September 2023 (UTC) 2035:19:00, 28 September 2023 (UTC) 2020:03:34, 26 September 2023 (UTC) 1987:06:49, 25 September 2023 (UTC) 1964:23:45, 24 September 2023 (UTC) 1939:15:10, 26 September 2023 (UTC) 1921:00:15, 25 September 2023 (UTC) 1905:23:00, 24 September 2023 (UTC) 1892:22:17, 24 September 2023 (UTC) 1868:21:35, 24 September 2023 (UTC) 1855:05:21, 24 September 2023 (UTC) 1838:05:12, 24 September 2023 (UTC) 1817:02:21, 20 September 2023 (UTC) 1766:01:59, 20 September 2023 (UTC) 1723:01:09, 20 September 2023 (UTC) 1649:01:00, 20 September 2023 (UTC) 1592:02:36, 19 September 2023 (UTC) 1542:20:22, 18 September 2023 (UTC) 1523:06:28, 23 September 2023 (UTC) 1505:19:29, 18 September 2023 (UTC) 1488:21:59, 17 September 2023 (UTC) 1461:16:06, 17 September 2023 (UTC) 1426:16:04, 17 September 2023 (UTC) 1402:15:59, 17 September 2023 (UTC) 1367:15:32, 17 September 2023 (UTC) 1346:05:33, 17 September 2023 (UTC) 1323:05:20, 16 September 2023 (UTC) 1295:10:39, 21 September 2023 (UTC) 1270:04:15, 17 September 2023 (UTC) 1245:16:44, 16 September 2023 (UTC) 1214:12:41, 16 September 2023 (UTC) 1194:16:28, 16 September 2023 (UTC) 1167:08:18, 16 September 2023 (UTC) 1143:11:14, 16 September 2023 (UTC) 1129:07:24, 16 September 2023 (UTC) 1085:add the page to your watchlist 13: 1: 1556:complementary, not redundant. 1202:m:Special:CentralAuth/Mykytal 777:investigation of the incident 526:recognize and stop resourcing 2876:06:35, 9 December 2023 (UTC) 2845:01:44, 9 December 2023 (UTC) 2354:secondary source summarizers 1565:tighter Wikidata integration 1105:hasn't had a mention in the 1060: 951:(beginning 11 September) is 378:Roles & Responsibilities 227:regional and thematic "hubs" 214:Global Council draft chapter 18:Knowledge:Knowledge Signpost 7: 3141:that we wish to expand into 766:posting AI-generated waffle 759:AN/I noticeboard discussion 596:for the last fiscal year: 10: 3406: 3065:Finances: May I recommend 2992:be done with WMF approval. 1609:in the RfC linked in this 1103:Smallcat dispute at ArbCom 617:goal of Knowledge Equity. 3236:It's the same problem as 2906:"external legal feedback" 1155:nominating a few articles 754:this oddly worded apology 450:noticeboard last month. 334:"external legal feedback" 2610:casting in the morning. 2532:Knowledge:Vital articles 1640:linked announcement post 945:Articles for Improvement 939:, since 5 September 2023 933:, since 5 September 2023 927:, since 5 September 2023 921:, since 5 September 2023 911:, since 4 September 2023 657:For further details see 611:Grants Strategy Relaunch 429:Africa Day Campaign 2023 3067:m:Wikimedia_Deutschland 2573:; it would have been a 1751:significant opposition. 949:Article for Improvement 528:ineffective organizers. 435:at the end of August. 224:The draft chapters for 1683:but not for long, see 1082:. 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