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avoid using a term that ends in that way. In fact this may be the only
Category where a term ends in -men and is not actually gender specific. Fisherman are called fishers, businessmen, which at one point was so unmbiquitous is businesspeople unless we have specific men, policemen, firemen, postman and so on we avoid using. The best term is actually drawers. The problem is that is the same word used for A-parts of a dresser, cabinet or desk, b-an item of clothing and c-people who take water out of a well. So even Drawers (people) would be potentially ambiguous. The best we could do is drawers (artists) which might be better than the current name. C. Even if we ignore that draughtsman is both ambiguous and potentially excluding some of the content, we have the issue that in the US and some other places that use English the preferred spelling is draftsman. Lastly having looked at the sources "draughtsman" or "draftsman" is also not always how these people are described. Many reliable sources just say the person was an artist and mention that thry had notable drawings without ever trying to use a word to say what they were doing. Either "drawing artist" or "Drawers (artists)" is about the best we can do. Either will be far clearer and less ambiguous than the target.
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a huge amount. So much so that most such categories as far as I can tell are fully diffused btmy gender. Dukes and
Duchesses; Counts or Earls and Countesses, Barons and Baroness, Princesses and princesses. For most of these noble titles there is no gender neutral position. I do not think anyone would ever call a duchess a Duke or a Countess a count. Mason is the only of about 5 editors who has proposed deletion, and she has not really addressed how that would work. Does this mean delete Countess, duchess etc cats, or would we just delete the women nobility tree. And not allow say French noblewomen but allow French Duchesses? An issue here is some of the people who get placed directly in X nationality women are noblewomen for whom we either do not know the title, or do not have a category on the title. I think being a noblewomen is in the main more defining than being a Countess or a duchess. In a lot of cases the real difference between Countess and duchess is negligible. Some women are both simultaneously. Lastly is women nobility mean to collect articles on titles or people? Right now it's actual content is articles on titles, although only 2. I am thinking we want both categories, one to collect articles on titles, and another to collect articles on people
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in France" instead of "French counts". I also noticed that "royalty by country" is a sub-cat of this. Up until recently "royalty" was a sub-cat of "nobility", however an editor recently moved it out. He also left a very rude note on my talk page about this. The things is many people have at the same time held titles that were both royal and noble. So for a time the King of
England was at the same time Duke of Normandy, Duke of Anjou and Duke of Aquitaine, all nobles titles in France. The King of Denmark was Duke of Holstein, and there are other examples. Also at times you had dukes and other holders of noble tiles who were de facto independent. It might be better to create a parent category "Nobility and royalty" and possibly rename some of the sub-cats along those lines. I think though we really should stay with country. "Nationality" is often a very poor way to descibe anything pre-1800, and that is when a large portion of the people who were nobility that we have articles actually lived.
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Tsardom of Russia tree and edited the information to correctly reflect that these people were in the military of the
Tsardom of Russia. With cases where we are categorizing direct government agents, that is Ambassadors, military personnel, civil servants, royalty, judges, maybe nobility and a few others, the specific polity is very important. We clearly should not categorize people are serving the Russian Empire when thry actually act before the Russian Empire existed. It is very frustrating to do edits that correctly reflect history and follow the existing articles only to have them reverted by an editor who seems most intent on imposing modern boundaries on all out understanding of the past.
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primarily the children of the
Emperor. There were dozens of small principalities in the Holy Roman Empire, the top ranked people were mainly the electors and the King of Bohemia, but it does seem the average Duke had more power than the average prince. So I think in would do better. I think in general with nobility we should only use "Duke of foo", "prince of foo" etc when they are "Dukes of York" or "Princes of Wales" where that is an actual title. Which means "Princes in Wales" would be the various Princes in early Medieval times, and a distinct category.
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categiry defintion. If we are going to have East Asia, West Asia, South Asia, Central Asia, etc categories we need to define them. The definition has to be uniform to topic, but not to time. So we could define
Central Asia as those areas in Asia east of the limit of Chinese control. Thus at certain times Uigurstan was in central Asia, but today it is in East Asia. We do not want to define these terms differentl for different subjects though. Georgraohy of West Asia, Cities of West Asia, etc. Should cover the same area however we define it.
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is no argument advanced to upmerge this. Just a blank statement that we do not want to subdivide noblemen and noblewomen. Noblemen and noblewomen have different roles, different functions and are very different at least for most of history. I think it makes perfect sense to subdivide them. Especially since many of the subcats that do exist (especially some for barons) are under 5 articles. It would be much better to merge some barons categories up to the by country noblemen categories than to leave them as is.
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Pennsylvania, etc. So it would seem logical to use the from form in the parent as well. The occuapat8onal categories, Surveyors from the
Thirteen Colonies, Merchants from the Thirteen Colonies, Printers from the Thirteen Colonies, Artists from the Thirteen Colonies all pretty much use from (except Kayors in the Thirteen Colonies, which should be renamed to Mayors of places in the Thirteen Colonies, and that using in instrument of from is our standard proceedure).
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allied to participate in AfD ever again. That was beyond the pale of rudeness. I thought that the by century categories existed as a method to subdivide other things. It is telling that until my recent placement of the person who she complained about removal from the 18th-century people from the
Russian Empire directly in the 18th-century people category there was no person in the 18th-century people category directly.
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pre-1805, and at least a few of the 86 Edlers of
Austria who fall in that time period. I have no idea why the Austria category is so much bigger. I am not sure Austria is the right term since the title was abolished with the fall of Austria-Hungary, but I am not sure an Austrian Empire and Austria-Hungary split makes sense.
539:
from
Ambassadors from the Netherlands catrgories. The Netherlands were formed in 1815 and so there were no Ambassadors from the Netherlands before that. I am tired of her insistence that she is absolutely right and especially of her insinuation that if I do not comply with her demands I will never by
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This especially comes up because the Kingdom of France up until 1526 included the County of Flanders, the least French part of what is now Belgium. The Counts of Flanders are clearly "Counts in France", calling them "French counts" seems much more problematic. Also the Kingdom of the Netherlands from
97:
Mason just asked me to stop creating new noblewomen categories. I think this is very unfair and an abuse of process. She has clearly not in Amy way presented an argument that being a noblewomam is not defining, and it is clearly a case where being such as a place where gender and occupation intersect
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We as Knowledge editors should follow accepted procedures. West Asia is clearly less Euro-centric. There is also the issue that "Near East" at one time was the far more common term, At one point the Middle East more often referred to South Asia and maybe Iran. The last think we want is a category by
724:
I do not think we should have this category. There was no United States until at least 1776, well into the 18th-century. I think the 17th-century Pennsylvania mayors category should be upmerged instead to Mayors in the Thirteen Colonies. I also wish I have named that category Mayors of places in the
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I was going to create a category Edlers in the Holy Roman Empire (I really think in is the right preposition here) but it seems like there is such a push to preserve Austria/German distinction pre-1805 that it will take a CfD to create such a category. There are 5 of the 15 Edlers of Germany who are
160:
I do not think we want to move this to by nationality. The think is here we want to link the title to the country where it originates in, the actual residence of the holder of the title does not matter. I think we might want to go the other way around and change most categories to forms like "Counts
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I think we should either rename the 17th-century categories to 17th-century people from the Thirteen Colonies. True there are not 13 colonies until 1732, but in our article we have accepted the term to refer to the grneral region for all its history. On further thought I think 16th-century American
599:
Can we at least agree that people who moved from France to New France do not belong in this category. I am thinking such a high percentage of People of New France (which probably should be renamed People from New France) were born in France that it makes no sense to create a French emigrants to New
514:
Articles almost always describe the subject as a "nobleman" not another term. There is no actual argument for upmerging this category. No one has pointed out any issues with the fact that historically knights were nobles and ladies were noblewomen, where lady is a term for a position of rank. There
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is another place where this comes up. Our article explicitly says this was a conflict between the Tsardom of Russia and the Swedish Empire. The creation of the Russian Empire is by our article defined as a consequence of this war. For these reasons I moved the military personnel Category under the
1044:(and even pointed out as much -- its a bit complicated, history wise so I won't get into it). However, the creator of the article is not assuming good faith and is being rathr vicious and derailing the Cfd by going on rants and painting my intentions in a bad light. Keep in mind, this is a simple
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you will find there are 6 different occupations that are covered there. The current draughtsman tree is at least to some extent merging the Drawing artist and the drafter terms and has some people who are both. That is only the first problem. The second is that the term ends in -men. We generally
787:
In short: If you erase "Category:Islam and slavery" and "Category:Islam and slavery" and "Category:Judaism and slavery" as well. They all have - or should have - the same use. I am not sure if I write this on the correct page, so please excuse me if I do not, but I thought I should point out an
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I think it would be better to use from and to rename the parent to People from the Thirteen Colonies as well. We have been trending to use of instead of from. At one point we remained all the categories of people from the specific Colonies to People from colonial New York, People from colonial
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One issue here is some of these were monarches in what is now South Africa before South Africa existed. However we have other similarly poorly named categories. Sometimes with no rhyme of reason. We have "Princes of the Holy Roman Empure" but "Princesses in the Holy Roman Empire". Neither is
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The argument that this is not ambiguous because the other category would be Greek muses should not be considered worthwhile. Any category disambiguation that relies on people correctly noticing which category has an upper case letter and which has a lower cases letter is not disambiguating
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I do not object creating a sub categories such as for example "Category:History of slavery in the Muslim world", but the "Category:Islam and slavery" have a separate purpose. You can create "Category:History of slavery in the Muslim world" without deleting or renaming "Category:Islam and
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It now looks like we have 11 in the parent category and 18 in the American one. I do not think we should ever have only 1 nationality sub-cat. I really see no reason to divide a 29 article catrgory by nationality. This takes ideas of Ametican exceptionalism to an unjustified
229:. I do not believe "Count of the Holy Roman Empire" was a title. I also do not believe there is any other discernable difference. Since it was not a title, we probably should use the in form, but even more clear we are not served by having 2 categories.
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I am tired of bring attacked by the editor Mason. She attacked me for removing someone who died in 1718 from the 18th-century people from the Russian Empire, even though the Russian Empire did not exist until 1718. She also reverted my removal of
179:
1815-1830 includes modern Belgium, calling any nobles then "Nobles in the Netherlands" works, calling them "Dutch nobles" which is how it would be formulated on nationality lines, is more problematic. There are a lot more cases along these lines.
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I was a little suprised to see a request for speedy deletion/renaming for Category:Islam and slavery. This should perhaps not be a speedy-issue, since this category is a sub-category of a main category that must correspond to its eqvivalent sub
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The Drawing artists should not be merged to daughtsmen. That term is A-ambiguous, B-toiblesome because it ends in -men and c. Introduces an Emglish variation issue that could be solved by using a different term. If you look up the article
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P.S. If there was a dicussion about this (I admit I may not be aware of it), please include its link to edit summaries. If there was no such discussion, it is not a good idea of embarking on massive changes without talking them through.
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You can not erase the "Category:Islam and slavery" without erazing the eqvivalent: "Category:Christianity and slavery" and "Category:Judaism and slavery". Knowledge must be consistent: erase all of these categories, or none of
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I am a little uncertain exactly where to post my comment. I can add - since you also did - that a renaming would in a sense be an "erasure" since a new name would have a new meaning and would not longer correspond to its
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France, but we should not conflate them with Frebch immigrants to Canada, that at its broadest should be limited to Beitish and Commonwealth Canada, and makes no sense if it includes areas before British rakeover.
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there is no sense of urgency in creating new noblewomen categories, so let's first wait how the discussion plays out. I agree with you that deletion would raise issues and maybe at most a merge is possible.
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This categories parent, Russian people of the Great Northern War, only has this category as a sub-cat. No direct articles. This category is in other ways in the Great Northern War and Russian categories.
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Someone has tried to argue Queens do not go here since royalty and nobility are different. However Royalty is a sub-cat of nobility. So it would seem we can place all royalty categories within nobility
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So you think all edler categories should be deleted. This may be true. I do not have a good grasp one way or the other on the system of titles in the Holy Roman Empire and its successor states.
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having been the capital of a past administrative division is not a defining characteristic of a current city. We do not even have categories for capitals of current administrative divisions.
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390:, because these "numerous discussions" missed my attention. I do see your point made in CFD, but I do have arguments against it. I will start the RFC tomorrow. I will let you know. --
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about a 19th-century baseball league with only two articles. Now I do have a plan for it AFTER it is merged per nom so those articles aren't erased from the MLB cats. But its after.
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The article says she was born in 1981, so only about 15 when British rule ended, and that she released her first work in 2004. The only listed albums are from the 2010s.
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813:. I'd like to stress though that the nomination does not concern any kind of erasure. Renaming does not impact the existence or the content of the category.
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Rv. These were historical **geography** categories hence their usage was perfecttly valid. I reverted your removals. If you disagree, please explain. --
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Mizz Eva is in category "living people". So either she did not in fact die before Hong Kong became part of China or the article is very flawed.
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These categories are useful for articles about the religion's rules and attituedes toward the institution of slavery. For example, the article
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1391:, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under
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There was also a Latino civil rights movement in the US centered on the work of LULAC. So I think the disambiguation is very much needed.
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You said I could put it up for Speedy, is there a way to withdraw it? What speedy criteria do I need to list it under?
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The dwscriptor for this category sats that thry are "counts in the Russian Empire". I think we should remame it to in.
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I was thinking this through and finally agreed that categorization by old subdivision has little value --
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guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at
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has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether it complies with the
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I'm also following the usual pattern as set in baseball categories and previous discussions in
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it came to my mind that some of the places do belong to these due to their
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there have been numerous discussions in the course of years. An example is
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you just need to mention that you are withdrawing it. Speedy criterion is
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will take care of it. It'll be done probably within the next few days.
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If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may
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If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may
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If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may
1199:, but there are three dozen more in it. Why you left them there? --
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as its sapital, as well as AugustĂłw, Kalvarija, etc., for being
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merge. They are straight up demanding I withdraw the nomination.
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Please add Category:British English-language television shows to
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is suitable to have in the category "Category:Islam and slavery".
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Category:Russian military personnel of the Great Northern War
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Category:Russian military personnel of the Great Northern War
1124:, namely capitals of their subdivisions. For example, for
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Can you help out? It will be much appreciated. Thanks.
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is so anachronistic we should scap all such categories.
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Category:Television shows written by Anthony Horowitz
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Category:Television shows written by Anthony Horowitz
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Thirteen Colonies, to match the sibblings we do have.
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indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a
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indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a
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indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a
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1029:Hey Marco. I just wanted to ask for some advice on
720:17th-century mayors of places in the United States
252:, I've never merged a category, how is it done?
1393:section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion
995:section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion
480:section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion
460:Category:Establishments in the Crimean Khanate
446:Category:Establishments in the Crimean Khanate
386:I see. I think there must be a general RFC in
740:16th-century people of the Thirteen Colonies
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274:you don't need to do anything. The closer
1112:Categorization by historical subdivisions
1406:and removing the speedy deletion tag.
1008:and removing the speedy deletion tag.
493:and removing the speedy deletion tag.
227:Category:Counts of the Holy Roman Empire
223:Category:Counts in the Holy Roman Empire
1222:Category:Wilno Voivodeship (1926–1939)
310:African-American Civil rights movement
1081:Category:Spanish anarcho-syndicalists
1067:Category:Spanish anarcho-syndicalists
788:observation. My very best greetings--
530:I am tired of being attacked by Mason
1373:Category:Medieval history of Bahrain
1359:Category:Medieval history of Bahrain
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1224:as the starting point rather than
1220:that is very simple, I was taking
1122:strong nin-accidental assaciations
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809:feel free to leave an "oppose" at
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537:Reinoud van Brederode (1567–1633)
1226:Category:Novoalexandrovsky Uyezd
1197:Category:Novoalexandrovsky Uyezd
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684:to me this looks like a case of
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217:Counts in the Holy Roman Empire
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1069:has been nominated for merging
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1191:Sorry for bugging you again:
951:18:42, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
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329:Massive removal of categories
1128:it is reasonable to contain
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422:Counts of the Russian Empire
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595:French immigrants to Canada
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110:23:00, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
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1371:A tag has been placed on
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476:Categories for discussion
458:A tag has been placed on
1385:featured topics category
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1136:. What do you think? --
1134:capitals of its counties
987:featured topics category
936:West Asia v. Middle East
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472:featured topics category
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197:Monarchs of South Africa
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1377:disambiguation category
1264:Hong Kong women rappers
979:disambiguation category
913:Request on Numberblocks
464:disambiguation category
1400:contest the nomination
1387:, under discussion at
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1002:contest the nomination
989:, under discussion at
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487:contest the nomination
474:, under discussion at
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1193:you removed one item
1090:the category's entry
830:sister-categories.--
778:Concubinage in Islam
765:Hello, Marcocapelle.
615:Precious anniversary
276:User:Queen of Hearts
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156:Nobility by country
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1118:your another decat
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848:Colonial Americans
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1404:visiting the page
1381:category redirect
1285:John Pack Lambert
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1097:page. Thank you.
1006:visiting the page
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683:
629:
622:
618:
503:
453:
367:
273:
121:
85:
35:
34:
24:
16:
1432:
1431:
1427:
1426:
1425:
1423:
1422:
1421:
1407:
1364:
1362:
1355:Speedy deletion
1330:Btspurplegalaxy
1327:
1307:Btspurplegalaxy
1301:
1266:
1246:
1213:
1171:Please join in
1150:
1114:
1078:
1074:
1071:
1033:. Its a simple
1027:
1025:AA Baseball CFD
1015:
1010:
966:
964:
957:Speedy deletion
938:
915:
890:
888:Drawing artists
870:
850:
802:
762:
742:
722:
680:Johnpacklambert
677:
659:
617:
597:
557:
532:
512:
494:
451:
449:
442:Speedy deletion
424:
361:
331:
312:
267:
248:As per outcome
246:
219:
199:
158:
118:Johnpacklambert
115:
95:
86:
80:
29:
12:
11:
5:
1430:
1361:
1357:nomination of
1352:
1351:
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1300:
1297:
1296:
1295:
1265:
1262:
1245:
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1240:
1189:
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1186:
1113:
1110:
1085:categorization
1072:
1070:
1064:
1053:Omnis Scientia
1026:
1023:
963:
959:nomination of
954:
937:
934:
914:
911:
889:
886:
869:
866:
849:
846:
845:
844:
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826:
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766:
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741:
738:
721:
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658:
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638:
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631:
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613:
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556:
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531:
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448:
444:nomination of
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404:
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401:
384:
330:
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308:
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245:
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218:
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157:
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94:
93:Women nobility
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68:
63:
58:
52:
51:
46:
41:
31:
30:
25:
19:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1429:
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1396:
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1202:
1198:
1194:
1185:
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1174:
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1164:
1160:
1154:
1149:
1148:
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1146:
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1135:
1131:
1127:
1123:
1119:
1109:
1108:
1104:
1100:
1096:
1092:
1091:
1086:
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1068:
1063:
1062:
1058:
1054:
1049:
1047:
1043:
1038:
1036:
1032:
1022:
1021:
1018:
1013:
1007:
1003:
998:
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992:
988:
984:
980:
976:
962:
958:
953:
952:
948:
944:
933:
932:
928:
924:
923:86.123.229.72
920:
910:
909:
905:
901:
896:
885:
884:
880:
876:
865:
864:
860:
856:
841:
837:
833:
828:
827:
824:
820:
816:
812:
806:
801:
800:
799:
795:
791:
786:
782:
779:
775:
771:
767:
764:
763:
757:
756:
752:
748:
737:
736:
732:
728:
713:
709:
705:
701:
700:
699:
695:
691:
687:
681:
676:
675:
674:
673:
669:
665:
654:
653:
649:
645:
636:
632:
628:
623:
612:
611:
607:
603:
590:
586:
582:
577:
576:
575:
574:
570:
566:
561:
552:
551:
547:
543:
538:
527:
526:
522:
518:
507:
506:
502:
500:
499:
492:
488:
483:
481:
477:
473:
469:
465:
461:
447:
443:
438:
437:
433:
429:
417:
414:
410:
406:
405:
400:
397:
393:
389:
385:
383:
379:
375:
371:
365:
360:
359:
358:
355:
351:
346:
345:
344:
343:
340:
336:
326:
325:
321:
317:
303:
299:
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290:
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285:
281:
277:
271:
266:
265:
264:
263:
259:
255:
251:
241:
240:
236:
232:
228:
224:
221:We have both
214:
213:
209:
205:
190:
186:
182:
177:
176:
175:
174:
173:
172:
168:
164:
149:
145:
141:
136:
135:
134:
130:
126:
119:
114:
113:
112:
111:
107:
103:
99:
75:
74:
67:
64:
62:
59:
57:
54:
53:
50:
47:
45:
42:
40:
37:
36:
33:
32:
28:
23:
18:
17:
1410:
1409:
1399:
1397:
1370:
1340:Marcocapelle
1317:
1312:
1306:
1305:
1302:
1267:
1247:
1230:Marcocapelle
1190:
1159:Marcocapelle
1121:
1115:
1088:
1079:
1050:
1046:WP:NARROWCAT
1039:
1035:WP:NARROWCAT
1028:
1001:
999:
972:
939:
919:this article
916:
891:
871:
851:
815:Marcocapelle
743:
723:
690:Marcocapelle
660:
644:Gerda Arendt
641:
635:Seven years!
598:
558:
533:
513:
497:
496:
486:
484:
457:
425:
374:Marcocapelle
332:
313:
280:Marcocapelle
247:
220:
200:
159:
125:Marcocapelle
100:
96:
26:
1116:Looking at
1042:WP:Baseball
895:Draughtsman
868:Greek Muses
769:categories.
292:OK thanks.
138:categories.
921:. Thanks,
686:WP:OCAWARD
1216:Altenmann
1201:Altenmann
1177:Altenmann
1153:Altenmann
1138:Altenmann
784:slavery".
409:Altenmann
392:Altenmann
364:Altenmann
350:Altenmann
335:Altenmann
66:Archive 6
61:Archive 5
56:Archive 4
49:Archive 3
44:Archive 2
39:Archive 1
1249:extreme.
1099:Grnrchst
1031:this Cfd
620:Precious
510:Noblemen
27:Archives
1130:Suwałki
1093:on the
873:enough.
811:WP:CFDS
294:LibStar
270:LibStar
254:LibStar
1336:WP:C2D
1173:WT:CAT
1016:plicit
832:Aciram
805:Aciram
790:Aciram
657:Edlers
388:WT:CAT
1204:: -->
1195:from
1180:: -->
1141:: -->
773:them.
412:: -->
395:: -->
353:: -->
338:: -->
1383:, a
1379:, a
1344:talk
1289:talk
1274:talk
1255:talk
1234:talk
1205:talk
1181:talk
1175:. --
1163:talk
1142:talk
1103:talk
1057:talk
985:, a
981:, a
947:talk
927:talk
904:talk
879:talk
859:talk
836:talk
819:talk
794:talk
751:talk
731:talk
708:talk
694:talk
668:talk
648:talk
606:talk
585:talk
569:talk
546:talk
521:talk
470:, a
466:, a
432:talk
413:talk
396:talk
378:talk
354:talk
339:talk
320:talk
298:talk
284:talk
258:talk
235:talk
225:and
208:talk
185:talk
167:talk
144:talk
129:talk
106:talk
1402:by
1395:.
1318:🖊️
1004:by
997:.
489:by
482:.
1414:iz
1346:)
1338:.
1313:đź’¬
1291:)
1276:)
1257:)
1236:)
1228:.
1165:)
1105:)
1059:)
949:)
929:)
906:)
881:)
861:)
838:)
821:)
796:)
753:)
733:)
710:)
696:)
688:.
670:)
650:)
642:--
608:)
587:)
571:)
548:)
523:)
501:iz
434:)
380:)
372:.
348:--
322:)
300:)
286:)
260:)
237:)
210:)
187:)
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146:)
131:)
108:)
1411:L
1342:(
1332::
1328:@
1287:(
1272:(
1253:(
1232:(
1218::
1214:@
1161:(
1155::
1151:@
1101:(
1055:(
1011:âś—
945:(
925:(
902:(
877:(
857:(
834:(
817:(
807::
803:@
792:(
749:(
729:(
706:(
692:(
682::
678:@
666:(
646:(
604:(
583:(
567:(
544:(
519:(
498:L
430:(
376:(
366::
362:@
318:(
296:(
282:(
272::
268:@
256:(
233:(
206:(
183:(
165:(
142:(
127:(
120::
116:@
104:(
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