22:
191:
159:
207:
175:
223:
239:
97:
53:
894:
I like the template as it is now, covering all major armoured vehicles in one place; I think the way Mzajac is thinking is the way forward: lightening the template and tightening it up. One thing I've done to make it lighter is removing the links to the various
Entwicklung designs, none of which were
904:
I agree with your choice to shorten down the E-series, but I changed the Maus and Ratte names. The reason is that in the case of the Maus, it was a formal name just like Tiger. For the Ratte, the P-1000 designation is more common then the nickname. The same is true for E- label as opposed to writing
525:
The
Panzerfunkwagens are variations of existing models with radios and a mounted frame aerial around hull, they can be mentioned as part of the parents description and do not require their own article. I'll admit though that the Kfz 13/14 (Maschinengewehrkraftwagen) and SdKfz 247 don't fit into the
510:
The main armored car types listed should at least include the Kfz 13/14, Sdkfz 221/22/23 260/61 Fu types, Sdkfz 231/32/63 233 (6 and 8 rad) and Sdkfz 234 types, and the Sdkfz 247 Personenkraftwagen. If all the main ones cannot be listed, it might better just to move the all the wheeled vehicles off
547:
Going back to the light/heavy issue, I have never seen them seperated with those names, only that the term is mentioned when saying the vehicles full name. Also heavy/light is not a very good seperator of functionality, for example, both the 222 and 234/1 both had a 20mm cannon. There was not much
884:
If we have the time, another solution that might work would be to have several templates; one covering the vehicle and its variants, the other for its class. For example the StuG III page could have one template covering all vehicles from the Panzer III chassis, and another for all German assault
543:
Also, writing out heavy/ light armored cars in the template is about as long as just linking Kfz 13/14, Sdkfz 221/223, 231/234, 247. The 234 series is enough different to deserve its own page eventually, as it is more the just another 231 version in many respects, but it is probably fine for now.
1030:
Does the Dell brochure use five different colours of bands, with little or no significance to the colours? (In our case, it seems "dark" means heading, "reddish" means experimental. Blue, green, and brown mean ... what?) Does it use a combination of background contrast, background colour, text
1229:
Jentz, Achtung! Panzer, and others say that the Panzer IX/X designs were frauds to confuse Allied intelligence agencies about German AFV plans. I've never seen any 3-views of it, or anything about them other than one hand-drawn picture of two tanks that appear to suffer from obesity. I doubt you
519:
Howdy
Starfury. The use of umlauts is optional on Knowledge, as the common English name tends to lose them in translation. Basically, we're to use what's more popular and create a redirect at the alternate. We can use a, ae, and ä with equal 'correctness'. A quick google run shows that
548:
of a real split in terms of the actual vehicles, but a gradual increase in weight and capabilities between the 4 6 and 8 wheelers with various weapon mounts. I do think you could leave it, but it would a unique way of listing them, not something I have ever seen done in my experience.
918:
Hi
Oberiko. In my default window, I never saw any line breaks, and I don't even have a very big monitor (running at 1024 px wide). Now two of the rows are awkwardly too tall. I'll change the pipe dividers to always break after; let me know if that fixes your problem.
565:
Allright then, what I will do is change the light and heavy names to the numbers on the template, since that is more common name for those vehicles. However, I will leave the page name where they are and I will not add the other vehicles to the template for now.
556:
I agree that it might not be an ideal split, but it is one that where a vehicle is definitely in one camp or the other. Once the vehicles are expanded further (enough for seperate articles), we can probably add more links to the template and further break it up.
700:
It's big, but it would look a lot less monstrous without the rainbow stripes. It makes me want to put my flaps down for final approach. When I have a chance, I'll try to make a redesign proposal (there's a first draft of the smaller Soviet AFVs table at
1014:
I like the second. I disagree with Mzajac, the colours are important to break up the sections and give the eye someting to fix on when looking up and down. I see the same thing in use besides me in a Dell brochure; alternating light and dark bands
867:
Another solution: tank pages get a tank-only template, which also links to a compact list of all German AFVs. All tanks remain a click away, other AFVs are two clicks. Likewise for each category, which is currently a single row in the template.
392:
There need to be at the very least good articles for the sdfk 250 and 251 half tracks; the various four wheeled armoured cars and six wheeled armoured cars can be combined; certainly the 221/222/223 don't necessarily need separate articles.
647:
You're probably right. I think we could merge
Armored Cars and and Half-tracks (We'll probably have one or two merged articles for them as well) and make a seperate template for the experimental vehicles. That would take off three rows.
1031:
size, text weight, and text colour to provide information (plus a couple of white rules, and a couple dozen pipe character separators)? Here the eye has waaay too much to fix on, and doesn't stop until it's bouncing off the walls.
182:
67:
463:. You may have noticed I changed the template a little because all models listed are/have been Flakpanzer IV versions. The Grille AA was a prototype and I changed it to Flakpanzer 38(t) because this tank saw service. --
539:
Hello again! If the logic for that spelling is because its more popular, then it does not make sense to list them that way at all, as the cars are rarely organized by using those names but usually mentioned after.
373:
Does anyone have an opinion on the
Armoured cars, being merged. To my mind the 221,222,223 articles are crying out for combination, but the template doesn't necessarily need altering since the space is there.
443:
SdKfz stands for Sonder
Kraftfahrzeug, meaning something like "special motor vehicle". Every AFV in Germany had a SdKfz number, including capturing captured models. Think of it as a serial number of sorts.
452:
The primary reasons why I suggest using those two is that they are part of the official designation for the vehicles and would give us a very conveniant, logical seperator between the armored car models.
214:
75:
852:. It's cleaner, but still pretty big. If splitting in two, try to keep the experimental tanks in the same infobox with the regular tanks, and experimental other in the infobox with the other, etc.
1204:
Colour's a bit thin for my eyes but the only thing thsat concerns me is that "Self
Propelled anti-aircraft" is just a bunch of descriptors without a noun it really needs the word "vehicle" after it.
978:
I'd definitely like to reduce or eliminate the colours in the template—they serve no purpose, and just make it really busy, distracting from the text. Have you seen the ideas I've been trying out:
1287:
230:
79:
166:
63:
1292:
895:
present anyway and replaced it with a link to one page for the entire series, as these really don't need separate pages. To do so, I shortened the names for the 'Maus' and 'Ratte' tanks. --
382:
Personally I think all the armored cars can go in one article and all the half-tracks can go in another. At least until we expand them beyond the few sentences they each are now.
1105:, which I updated yesterday. I've used alternating tone to unify the headings with their associated content rows (instead of separating them, as the current template does).
246:
83:
277:
I added
Coelian to this list,however I was in doubt where to place it...prototypes or Flak Panzers,because only a wooden mock-up was created...feel free to correct me :)
1307:
198:
71:
1058:(I think i got the number of indents right) I was not commenting ont he number of different colours used, just that the alternation of light and dark was important.
1317:
354:
Basically we've agreed to keep the template as it is, no foreign/captured tanks with the exception of the Panzer 35(t) / 38(t) which is something of an exception.
1277:
482:
I follow now, in that case, doing a rename on SdfkZ 221, will suffice and then the variant numbers will all automatically redirect to it. I'll give it a go now.
1312:
973:
For which element of the template? What colours do you suggest for the other ones (I've found
American, British, French, and Soviet; is that all of them?).
1322:
1282:
267:
436:
Unfortunately those are both very long names and to mind mind just translate as heavy and light armoured car. What's the origin of the SdFkz "acronym"?
965:
Might I suggest a different colour for the template - on my monitor RBG 51,153,153 is a passable match for "field grey" and a browser safe colour too.
309:
The archived discussion didn't actually explain what the consensus opinion was on the template, would you mind stating what it is here for the record
1272:
460:
Just for Info: Sd.Kfz. means Sonderkraftfahrzeug - one word but two parts if using the short form. An example collection of Sd.Kfz. Numbers is here:
109:
1327:
301:
I would suggest that, in light of the recent debate, any major change to this template by anyone be approved here first before being made.
1332:
1297:
104:
58:
1302:
113:
1234:
531:
My preference though would be to mention them within the light armored car article, under the heading of "related designs"
289:
I think vehicles that were never actually built but designed is fine so long as they are under the Experimental heading.
1230:
could find any other official source to suggest a design phase, and they certainly didn't reach the prototype stage.
503:
The names for those two are listed under is rarely used to delineate these types and are not even spelled right. Its
1080:
Fair enough. I wasn't advocating necessarily getting rid of bands of tone, but I dislike the multiple colours.
1245:
108:. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
33:
885:
guns. This would not only be smaller per page, but probably serve as a more effective navigation tool.
935:
Done; added some strategic NBSPs to prevent most of the links from breaking in the middle. Good now?
507:
Panzerspähwagen not Panzerspahwagen. Also, the 223 and 260/1 were Panzerfunkwagen not Panzerspähwagen.
1224:
1170:
1102:
979:
849:
702:
803:
799:
685:
681:
631:
627:
589:
This template is too big to be in one part (someone in germany called a smaller version a monster).
425:
421:
461:
1140:
I have no opinion on changing the headings, but I do prefer the dot seperators over the pipe.
1248:. Topics include style, and the organization of post-WWII templates. Please discuss there.
39:
1239:
526:
model. We could have a generic "other" within Armored Cars to handle these two anomalies.
8:
1205:
1059:
1016:
966:
693:
483:
409:
375:
336:
310:
573:
1174:
896:
394:
284:
1254:
1111:
1037:
1001:
941:
925:
874:
858:
836:
817:
278:
724:
368:
591:
At least the halftrack an armored cars section should be combined into one field:
272:
717:
1266:
1231:
906:
744:
567:
549:
512:
190:
1141:
951:
886:
848:
I've put a more subdued version of the German AFV navbox in my sandbox, at
649:
640:
558:
532:
464:
454:
429:
383:
355:
321:
302:
290:
1251:
1108:
1034:
998:
938:
922:
871:
855:
833:
814:
748:
206:
500:
It removed the other armored cars, there were more then just two series.
158:
768:
736:
665:
599:
960:
794:
790:
786:
782:
756:
732:
677:
623:
619:
615:
611:
174:
987:
This one is too dark for putting behind text, and looks a bit like
728:
238:
222:
778:
760:
752:
673:
607:
578:
Have you ever thought of splitting the template into two parts ?
1288:
Template-Class military science, technology, and theory articles
913:
740:
1293:
Military science, technology, and theory task force articles
428:
for the four wheeled variants instead of the SdFkz numbers?
320:
My apologies, it's on my user page. I'll transfer it over.
496:
There is a problem with the new template for armored cars:
296:
96:
52:
1244:
There's a discussion about AFV navigation templates at
582:
Tanks, Assault guns, Tank destroyers, Artillery and AA
408:
Just as well, I've already rearanged the 220 series.
268:
Template talk:WWIIGermanAFVs/Foreign vehicle debate
183:
Military science, technology, and theory task force
1308:Template-Class European military history articles
1264:
710:My attempt at putting two categories in one row:
1318:Template-Class German military history articles
1278:Template-Class military land vehicles articles
1313:European military history task force articles
1323:German military history task force articles
1283:Military land vehicles task force articles
102:This template is within the scope of the
32:does not require a rating on Knowledge's
1273:Template-Class military history articles
723:
424:for the six/eight wheeled variants and
1265:
1173:page and would propose adopting it. --
1169:I like the bottom design on Michael's
657:How about like this, more compact, no?
122:Knowledge:WikiProject Military history
112:. To use this banner, please see the
520:non-umlauted version is more popular.
125:Template:WikiProject Military history
21:
19:
1328:Template-Class World War II articles
215:European military history task force
15:
38:It is of interest to the following
13:
237:
231:German military history task force
221:
205:
189:
173:
157:
14:
1344:
420:Could I suggest we use the names
167:Military land vehicles task force
1333:World War II task force articles
1298:Template-Class weaponry articles
1101:But please have another look at
95:
51:
20:
713:
980:User:Mzajac/sandbox#AFV navbox
850:User:Mzajac/sandbox#AFV navbox
703:User:Mzajac/sandbox#AFV navbox
1:
1303:Weaponry task force articles
776:
672:
606:
105:Military history WikiProject
7:
1246:WT:AFV#Navigation templates
335:just a summary will do fine
10:
1349:
639:(just a small example) --
1235:10:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
766:
716:
570:19:15, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
293:10:46, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
245:
229:
213:
197:
181:
165:
140:
136:
128:military history articles
90:
46:
1240:AFV navigation templates
1208:14:09, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
969:11:19, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
830:I've gone and done it.
696:20:35, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
678:SdkFz 250, 251, 252, 253
643:18:20, 2005 Apr 7 (UTC)
552:18:03, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
515:00:58, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
457:15:08, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
432:12:09, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
426:Leichter Panzerspahwagen
422:Schwerer Panzerspahwagen
378:14:12, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
305:00:09, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
1177:17:09, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
1144:15:56, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
1019:15:30, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
954:23:30, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
909:18:11, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
899:08:05, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
889:00:57, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
652:19:10, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
561:02:21, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
535:01:57, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
511:to there own template.
486:15:41, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
467:15:23, 2005 Apr 7 (UTC)
412:08:01, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
397:07:54, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
358:13:04, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
339:11:07, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
324:10:54, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
313:10:37, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
247:World War II task force
141:Associated task forces:
574:Splitting the template
242:
226:
210:
194:
178:
162:
285:Experimental vehicles
241:
225:
209:
193:
177:
161:
369:Conflation of models
585:all the other stuff
273:Flak Panzer Coelian
199:Weaponry task force
1258:2008-08-28 00:08 z
995:might be better.
993:This colour (#9CC)
950:Yes, much better.
804:Heavy armored cars
800:Light armored cars
632:Heavy armored cars
628:Light armored cars
281:16.00 20 Oct 2010
243:
227:
211:
195:
179:
163:
110:list of open tasks
34:content assessment
1259:
1225:Panzer IX is Fake
1116:
1115:2005-04-9 15:50 Z
1042:
1041:2005-04-8 22:07 Z
1006:
1005:2005-04-8 14:04 Z
946:
945:2005-04-7 23:30 Z
930:
929:2005-04-7 23:22 Z
879:
878:2005-04-7 23:38 Z
863:
862:2005-04-7 23:32 Z
841:
840:2005-04-7 21:50 Z
822:
821:2005-04-7 20:38 Z
809:
808:
691:
690:
637:
636:
264:
263:
260:
259:
256:
255:
252:
251:
114:full instructions
1340:
1257:
1114:
1040:
1004:
994:
990:
944:
928:
877:
861:
839:
820:
714:
661:
660:
595:
594:
148:
138:
137:
130:
129:
126:
123:
120:
119:Military history
99:
92:
91:
86:
59:Military history
55:
48:
47:
25:
24:
23:
16:
1348:
1347:
1343:
1342:
1341:
1339:
1338:
1337:
1263:
1262:
1242:
1227:
992:
988:
963:
916:
718:Tank destroyers
668:| Armored Cars
602:| Armored Cars
576:
371:
299:
287:
275:
146:
127:
124:
121:
118:
117:
61:
12:
11:
5:
1346:
1336:
1335:
1330:
1325:
1320:
1315:
1310:
1305:
1300:
1295:
1290:
1285:
1280:
1275:
1241:
1238:
1226:
1223:
1222:
1221:
1220:
1219:
1218:
1217:
1216:
1215:
1214:
1213:
1212:
1211:
1210:
1209:
1189:
1188:
1187:
1186:
1185:
1184:
1183:
1182:
1181:
1180:
1179:
1178:
1156:
1155:
1154:
1153:
1152:
1151:
1150:
1149:
1148:
1147:
1146:
1145:
1127:
1126:
1125:
1124:
1123:
1122:
1121:
1120:
1119:
1118:
1090:
1089:
1088:
1087:
1086:
1085:
1084:
1083:
1082:
1081:
1069:
1068:
1067:
1066:
1065:
1064:
1063:
1062:
1049:
1048:
1047:
1046:
1045:
1044:
1023:
1022:
1021:
1020:
1009:
1008:
984:
983:
975:
974:
962:
961:Template color
959:
958:
957:
956:
955:
915:
912:
911:
910:
901:
900:
891:
890:
846:
845:
844:
843:
825:
824:
807:
806:
797:
775:
774:
771:
764:
763:
721:
720:
712:
711:
707:
706:
689:
688:
670:
669:
659:
658:
654:
653:
635:
634:
604:
603:
592:
590:
587:
586:
583:
575:
572:
563:
562:
537:
536:
528:
527:
522:
521:
505:
504:
501:
494:
493:
492:
491:
490:
489:
488:
487:
473:
472:
471:
470:
469:
468:
447:
446:
445:
444:
438:
437:
418:
417:
416:
415:
414:
413:
401:
400:
399:
398:
387:
386:
370:
367:
366:
365:
364:
363:
362:
361:
360:
359:
345:
344:
343:
342:
341:
340:
328:
327:
326:
325:
315:
314:
298:
295:
286:
283:
274:
271:
262:
261:
258:
257:
254:
253:
250:
249:
244:
234:
233:
228:
218:
217:
212:
202:
201:
196:
186:
185:
180:
170:
169:
164:
154:
153:
151:
149:
143:
142:
134:
133:
131:
100:
88:
87:
56:
44:
43:
37:
26:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1345:
1334:
1331:
1329:
1326:
1324:
1321:
1319:
1316:
1314:
1311:
1309:
1306:
1304:
1301:
1299:
1296:
1294:
1291:
1289:
1286:
1284:
1281:
1279:
1276:
1274:
1271:
1270:
1268:
1261:
1260:
1256:
1253:
1247:
1237:
1236:
1233:
1207:
1206:GraemeLeggett
1203:
1202:
1201:
1200:
1199:
1198:
1197:
1196:
1195:
1194:
1193:
1192:
1191:
1190:
1176:
1172:
1168:
1167:
1166:
1165:
1164:
1163:
1162:
1161:
1160:
1159:
1158:
1157:
1143:
1139:
1138:
1137:
1136:
1135:
1134:
1133:
1132:
1131:
1130:
1129:
1128:
1117:
1113:
1110:
1104:
1100:
1099:
1098:
1097:
1096:
1095:
1094:
1093:
1092:
1091:
1079:
1078:
1077:
1076:
1075:
1074:
1073:
1072:
1071:
1070:
1061:
1060:GraemeLeggett
1057:
1056:
1055:
1054:
1053:
1052:
1051:
1050:
1043:
1039:
1036:
1029:
1028:
1027:
1026:
1025:
1024:
1018:
1017:GraemeLeggett
1013:
1012:
1011:
1010:
1007:
1003:
1000:
989:blue licorice
986:
985:
981:
977:
976:
972:
971:
970:
968:
967:GraemeLeggett
953:
949:
948:
947:
943:
940:
934:
933:
932:
931:
927:
924:
908:
903:
902:
898:
893:
892:
888:
883:
882:
881:
880:
876:
873:
865:
864:
860:
857:
851:
842:
838:
835:
829:
828:
827:
826:
823:
819:
816:
811:
810:
805:
801:
798:
796:
792:
788:
784:
780:
777:
773:Armored cars
772:
770:
765:
762:
758:
754:
750:
746:
745:Jagdpanzer IV
742:
738:
734:
730:
726:
725:Panzerjäger I
722:
719:
715:
709:
708:
704:
699:
698:
697:
695:
694:GraemeLeggett
687:
683:
679:
675:
671:
667:
663:
662:
656:
655:
651:
646:
645:
644:
642:
633:
629:
625:
621:
617:
613:
609:
605:
601:
597:
596:
593:
584:
581:
580:
579:
571:
569:
560:
555:
554:
553:
551:
545:
541:
534:
530:
529:
524:
523:
518:
517:
516:
514:
508:
502:
499:
498:
497:
485:
484:GraemeLeggett
481:
480:
479:
478:
477:
476:
475:
474:
466:
462:
459:
458:
456:
451:
450:
449:
448:
442:
441:
440:
439:
435:
434:
433:
431:
427:
423:
411:
410:GraemeLeggett
407:
406:
405:
404:
403:
402:
396:
391:
390:
389:
388:
385:
381:
380:
379:
377:
376:GraemeLeggett
357:
353:
352:
351:
350:
349:
348:
347:
346:
338:
337:GraemeLeggett
334:
333:
332:
331:
330:
329:
323:
319:
318:
317:
316:
312:
311:GraemeLeggett
308:
307:
306:
304:
294:
292:
282:
280:
270:
269:
248:
240:
236:
235:
232:
224:
220:
219:
216:
208:
204:
203:
200:
192:
188:
187:
184:
176:
172:
171:
168:
160:
156:
155:
152:
150:
145:
144:
139:
135:
132:
115:
111:
107:
106:
101:
98:
94:
93:
89:
85:
81:
77:
73:
69:
65:
64:Land vehicles
60:
57:
54:
50:
49:
45:
41:
35:
31:
27:
18:
17:
1249:
1243:
1228:
1175:Martin Wisse
1106:
1103:my proposals
1032:
996:
964:
936:
920:
917:
897:Martin Wisse
869:
866:
853:
847:
831:
812:
692:
638:
588:
577:
564:
546:
542:
538:
509:
506:
495:
419:
395:Martin Wisse
372:
300:
288:
276:
265:
103:
84:World War II
40:WikiProjects
29:
914:Line breaks
769:half-tracks
749:Jagdpanther
686:6-8 wheeled
666:half-tracks
600:half-tracks
279:Nikolas93ts
1267:Categories
68:Technology
1171:proposals
757:Jagdtiger
682:4 wheeled
266:Archive:
1232:Sacxpert
907:Starfury
905:it out.
767:Armored
729:Marder I
664:Armored
598:Armored
568:Starfury
550:Starfury
513:Starfury
297:Proposal
76:European
72:Weaponry
30:template
1252:Michael
1142:Oberiko
1109:Michael
1035:Michael
999:Michael
991:to me.
952:Oberiko
939:Michael
923:Michael
887:Oberiko
872:Michael
856:Michael
834:Michael
815:Michael
779:SdKfz 4
761:Elefant
753:Nashorn
674:SdKfz 4
650:Oberiko
641:Denniss
608:SdKfz 4
559:Oberiko
533:Oberiko
465:Denniss
455:Oberiko
430:Oberiko
384:Oberiko
356:Oberiko
322:Oberiko
303:Oberiko
291:Oberiko
741:Hetzer
80:German
36:scale.
28:This
795:253
791:252
787:251
783:250
737:III
624:253
620:252
616:251
612:250
1269::
1255:Z.
1112:Z.
1038:Z.
1002:Z.
942:Z.
926:Z.
875:Z.
859:Z.
837:Z.
818:Z.
802:|
793:|
789:|
785:|
781:|
759:|
755:|
751:|
747:|
743:|
739:|
735:,
733:II
731:,
727:|
705:).
684:,
680:|
676:,
630:,
626:|
622:,
618:,
614:,
610:,
393:--
147:/
82:/
78:/
74:/
70:/
66:/
62::
1250:—
1107:—
1033:—
997:—
982:?
937:—
921:—
870:—
854:—
832:—
813:—
116:.
42::
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
