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which is why it should be omitted. As for the semi-professional/professional/premier, I don't know what constitutes as a "reliable" source to wikipedia standards. There are business journals calling it professional lacrosse, newspapers calling it professional lacrosse, etc. The NCAA (whom I deem to be reliable) recognizes it as professional lacrosse, which is why per NCAA bylaw 12.2.2.4 Draft List; "An individual loses amateur status in a particular sport when the individual asks to be placed on the draft list or supplemental draft list of a professional league in that sport..." It is noted that
Collegiate players will lose all NCAA eligibility if registering for any draft prior to their Collegiate career being over in Major League Lacrosse. I do believe the community would consider Major League Lacrosse a professional league, and as I saw in previous edits, I am not the only one in the past who has tried to adjust it as so. Let me know what can be done so we can have the outdated source removed and add a definition that is accurate.
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coherent way and does not point to any reliable sources. The choice as to which of those two definitions of semi-pro we should rely on seems clear. Furthermore, your pointing to the NCAA regulations as authority on the definition of semi-pro is curious. I have been unable to find any NCAA definitions of semi-pro; the NCAA definition is binary: a player is either amateur or not; there is no third option of semi-pro. The NCAA would consider a part-time player who collects a $ 50 stipend every week to be professional (ie, not amateur), whereas we both agree that that player is a semi-pro athlete. Lastly, your other points as to which other leagues evolved from semi-pro to fully-pro status and when seem far beyond the scope of this MLL article and related MLL articles; if you want to discuss those issues further, you may want to consider raising that issue on the talkpage of a broader article, such as the
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information is not given to the public and I know the amounts listed are not accurate. It can be called the premier outdoor lacrosse league but not semi-professional as that is not what it is. If you look at any source online in recent years, it is considered a professional lacrosse league. A lot of players make a living off of playing in major league lacrosse with outside sponsors including Paul Rabil who makes over $ 1,000,000.00 per year now. These
Players play lacrosse year round and are under contract for the entire year.
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during summer months, and players cannot live off of the MLL salary alone. In light of this definition, your unsupported argument that "The fact that the MLL's players tend to have other jobs is irrelevant" is at odds with this reliable source. Your argument re self-identification is not persuasive either; Major League
Lacrosse is not considered one of the "major league" sports, despite the fact that is calls itself one, just as
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Again, there is no new articles because that information is not made public so the numbers you are quoting are inaccurate. If your job is to find accuracy in posts, then that should be taken down. Also, while we are on the subject, is woman's soccer considered professional? According to the wiki page it is yet the salaries range to no more than $ 30,000.00 per business insider (reliable source). Can that be explained????
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themselves entirely from from the income made from their sport. And all the players in baseball's minor leagues would have to count as semi-professional, as the pay rates when you get down to Class A ball are lower even than those in the MLL. Yet, clearly, no one takes this position. No one takes this position because it is at odds with the established usage of the term "semi-professional" in the context of sports.
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wider knowledge about the current state of lacrosse than me. (I am but a
Knowledge editor, the only sport I ever played was soccer when I was 12). But Knowledge doesn't run off of hearsay or "primary sources". Knowledge uses secondary sources. This means the primary source of information that belongs
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The fact that the MLL's players tend to have other jobs is irrelevant. Even a league in which players have off-season jobs can be a professional league; if not, then the NFL and baseball's
American League and National League would have to be deemed semi-professional until the mid-1970s. Almost all
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How about someone from the League Office who handles all of that stating that the article you are referring to is inaccurate. I believe that would be a bit more reliable than something from three years ago. The NCAA explicitly considers it a "professional" league as per their bylaws stated above.
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I have reverted changes that were made without discussion here and without explanation in edit summaries. I removed the descriptor from the first sentence in the hope that will reduce edit warring, but left the descriptor in the second paragraph where more context is given (I.e., facts and cites re
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Also, I did not claim that being on television alone makes an entity a professional league. I pointed to MLL's presence on national television (it has been carried in recent years by ESPN and by CBS Sports) as one of the factors that establish its status as a major league. By comparison, semi-pro
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I have added a 2014 Sporting News article that is consistent with the 2012 WSJ article. I have restored the cite to the 2012 WSJ article. I have also added a more recent CNN article from 2015. The text now says that salaries are "reported" in the $ 10-25k range. If someone has citations to reliable
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The sources you provided, the first, second, and third are great sources... but they don't contradict that the sport is a semi-professional sport. They dont establish that the players make enough money to sustain themselves fully. The 4rth, 5th, and 6th (as of this time of writing) are not reliable
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By all of these standards, this is a professional league. Furthermore, several sources have agreed with this characterisation, and have even demonstrated that some players make quite a lot of money indeed (with one player making a million dollars a year). The existence of a stray article here or
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by changing it back before consensus is garnered by the editing community. The reason that the term "Semi-Professional" is used is because of the definition of Semi-Professionalism is that a sport does not usually pay enough to be a fulltime job without side jobs. The 2013 WSJ (Not 5 years ago, 2)
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Agreed, as one might guess since I've reverted similar edits before. On the other hand, I'm not so sure that the salary info needs to be in the first sentence, so long as it appears with the reliable source given somewhere in the article, to back up the semi-pro classification. Putting it right up
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Let's weigh the competing definitions offered here for "semi-professional". On the one hand we have a reference to a reliable source, ie the
Merriam-Webster dictionary. On the other hand, we have an editor's opinion that contradicts the dictionary definition but does actually define the term in a
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When
Knowledge articles on the MLL and its teams insist on a highly unfamiliar usage of the term "semi-professional", this amounts to an abdication of the mission of Knowledge to describe the world as it is by reference to the most relevant sources and authorities. The improper act of imposing a
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define the term. As stated above in a 2013 post, the
Merriam-Webster dictionary defines semi-professional as "paid to participate in a sport or activity but not doing it as a full-time job." That's exactly what the multiple cites in this article establish -- ie, MLL players practice once per week
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All I am trying to get across is that the source your are citing is inaccurate. The salaries have never been made public first of all which is why there are no newer articles stating anything contradicting the article you cited, however, the salaries listed are not accurate to today's standards
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The question is not only one of sources, but one of common usage. In standard
American English, the term "semi-professional" has an established meaning. It applies to the myriad local football leagues which consist of area players in their 30s and 40s. It can also apply to something like the
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Major League
Lacrosse is considered a professional lacrosse league amongst many sources, the players, fans, and the League itself. It is not considered semi-professional so by deeming it one on wikipedia is inaccurate. The salary information is also no longer accurate per League sources, that
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I'm afraid that you have left unadressed the implications of your position, to wit: if MLL players are semi-professional, then so were NFL players and Major League Baseball players (save for a small handfull) up until the mid-1970s, as almost all of them worked other jobs and could not support
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There has been an edit war going on for a few months now on the correct description for MLL. The reliable sources in favor of the "semi-pro" label include the 2013 Wall Street Journal story cited in the article, which describes the players as part time players with other jobs. Merriam-Webster
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American Ultimate Disc League, in which teams travel between regions, but there is almost no salary paid to players. To use this term for the MLL, a league which represents the highest level in the world of a traditional sport and which has its games shown on national television, is absurd.
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was not considered major league. Finally, your argument that MLL is professional because it is on TV is not persuasive either. TV coverage is not the same as professionalism; NCAA football and NCAA basketball are shown widely on TV, yet the NCAA classifies both sports as amateur.
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No mention of the season structure (do all teams play all other teams, or do they play more against teams in their own conference, etc.) or playoff structure (How many teams make the playoffs? How is it decided who plays who? Single game elimination or best of
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I don't care one way or the other,but would like to know how the MLL treats the Chicago Machine and the Ohio Machine. Does the MLL consider them one franchise two cities or two different franchise. any info or sources from the team or league would be great.
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stated that they are semi-professionals. All of the sources you provided were unreliable and many were not even sources. Even then, they did not establish that lacrosse players in general make enough money to work full time. It is
940:. I honestly don't care one way or another if lacrosse is *actually* a semi-professional or not. What I do care about is an accurate article. Accuracy can only be established on Knowledge through Reliable Secondary Sources.
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Most convincing in establishing that the MLL counts as a professional league is the NCAA's classification of it as such. This on its own is enough to resolve the question, and to obviate any dissent.
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defines semi-pro as "paid to participate in a sport or activity but not doing it as a full-time job." That seems pretty clear cut that MLL is semi-pro. I am not aware of any independent secondary
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the players in baseball's minor leagues have other jobs (perhaps apart from the high draft picks who have been given large signing bonuses); yet no one doubts that these are professional leagues.
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Thanks for raising the issue here on the talk page. I'm glad we both agree that the established meaning of "semi-professional" in American English is important here. Let's look at how
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It's a matter also of self-identification (the MLL calls itself a professional league), and of identification by related bodies (the NCAA considers the MLL a professional league).
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Until you can supply a genuine, second-or-third-party reliable source, then it is the most recent, accurate information we have. Pretty much what we have here is an article from
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leagues such as the American Ultimate Disc Leagues or Major League Ultimate tend to be carried at best on ESPN3, which is not a television network but an online-only platform.
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So all of the instances of "semi-professional" to describe the MLL are fundamentally wrong, and should be replaced by the appropriate descriptor "professional".
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And here you go - Wall Street Journal (Reliable Source) stating it as professional lacrosse in a more recent article, 2014. Please adjust now.
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is information published by a reliable secondary source. When two sources conflict, it is up to the community to decide what will be used.
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there that uses the term "semi-professional" should not be enough to negate the established fact of this league's professional status.
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No matter how much knowledge you might personally have, it doesn't belong if you can't find a strong secondary source to back it up.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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I believe all the info on that page was taken from other pages already est. I redirected that page to the main one
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strange and idiosyncratic usage of a well-established term seriously undermines Knowledge's utility and validity.
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is out of date, poorly maintained, and orphaned. Perhaps it might get more attention if it was merged here.
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sources with different info, please add them, but do not remove existing cites to reliable sources.
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provided by the editors who keep deleting the "semi-pro" description and the sourced salary info.
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Please discuss here before making further changes. Be careful you do not blow the
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newly added and existing articles, maybe nominate some good B-class articles for
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here on the Talk page for independent editors to review, or
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https://en.wikipedia.org/National_Women%27s_Soccer_League
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https://en.wikipedia.org/Women%27s_Professional_Soccer
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34:
1334:Newyearbaby
822:Barryjjoyce
683:==Rating==
231:To-do list:
1350:Categories
1273:talkpage.
654:contact us
648:. You may
446:Categorize
358:Popularity
986:oknazevad
838:oknazevad
459:: answer
438:Translate
39:is rated
1078:contribs
1066:unsigned
1048:contribs
1036:unsigned
1012:unsigned
960:unsigned
904:contribs
892:unsigned
719:contribs
336:shameful
107:Lacrosse
98:lacrosse
70:Lacrosse
1070:Cakeane
1040:Cakeane
896:Cakeane
859:Cakeane
793:Smith03
773:Smith03
706:3/5/7?)
603:on the
451:olympic
338:state)
324:Cleanup
245:history
134:on the
41:C-class
1302:CUA 27
1275:CUA 27
1168:CUA 27
1092:CUA 27
758:Mitico
744:Powers
569:Alerts
417:Update
368:Expand
356:- the
309:Assess
209:Sports
159:Sports
47:scale.
942:Jcmcc
938:WP:RS
874:Jcmcc
711:MrBoo
429:Other
403:Stubs
388:Photo
255:purge
250:watch
200:sport
28:This
1338:talk
1306:talk
1295:2018
1279:talk
1248:talk
1172:talk
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921:much
900:talk
878:Talk
842:talk
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715:talk
697:text
457:RfCs
240:edit
870:not
595:Low
126:Top
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